D&D 5E Removing the HP Bloat

[DND_Reborn]

First, I don't like long posts--so I apologize for the length of this one... Also, as usual, this is not for most and I am ok with that.

I've mentioned this idea here and there in other threads, but I wanted a place to put it out there on its own. In the (relatively) near future I will be running our game as DM for a while. Being the rule-tweaker that I am, there are several ideas I will be implementing but this is the most important one:

Everything has half its listed hit points.

Well, okay, not quite for PCs, who are closer to 53-55%, but otherwise it is universal.

An orc? HP = 15 right? Not now, it is only 7 (I round down).
An ogre? HP = 59 is now only 29.
An adult red dragon? HP = 256, but will only be 128.
And so on...

For PCs it is slightly different. You begin with max HP and your hit point modifier (discussed later). At 2nd level, you get only your hit die and then at 3rd level you get only your hit point modifier. This repeats so on even levels you get a hit die, and on odd levels you hit your hit point modifier. This results in slightly better than half normal hit points, but not by a lot.

So, why am I doing this? BECAUSE COMBAT TAKES WAY TOO LONG! The culprit? Hit point bloat (IMO anyway).

It also has some great side-effects!

1. It really makes low CR creatures more potent because not only can they hit, but when they do it matters MORE. Think about it. A CR 1/2 Goblin can hit a AC 20 with 16 or higher (25%), which is great and part of what bounded accuracy was supposed to do. For a PC with 50 hit points or so (say about 5-6th level), those 5 points of damage aren't a big deal really. However, with my idea the HP would be about 30, making 5 points much more significant!

Now, I realize if the goblin has its normal hp, it might survive a second round and get to attack again, maybe hitting for 5 points. So the idea with the bloated hp is it keeps combat going a long time because things survive long enough to keep hitting repeatedly and wear down the PCs. But that is the problem... a slow beating down of the PCs and combat dragging on and on.

2. Scary monsters are SCARY, I mean like WOW, SCARY! So, an ogre does 13 damage. Pretty nice, right? Sure, with 50 hp that is about 25%. But, with only 30 hp, it is 43%! Makes that ogre a bit scarier, huh? I think so. Of course, with only 29 hit points, the PCs will kill the ogre more quickly, but again that is the point--to speed up combat.

3. Magic kills. Sleep can actually affect things. In 1E, the average ogre (4d8+1) had 19 hit points. Sleep actually had a 50/50 chance of working. In 5E, it won't work until you get the ogre down 30 hp or more typically. Well, people might cry out "NO way! Casters would be too powerful!" accept they aren't since they will also have fewer hit points and be just as vulnerable to enemy casters as their opponents are to them.

I could go on, but I am shaking from how long this post is already so one final thing:

The Hit Point Modifier.

Forget CON. Lame. Because CON is tied into hp, for most characters it is the 3rd or better stat, rarely 4th, and super rare for 5th or 6th. With the "abstract" idea of hp in 5E being more embraced, I have gone further....

Your Hit Point Modifier is equal to the modifier you have for your highest ability score. This means a wizard will gain his hp bonus from INT (most likely), a rogue from DEX, etc. Now, we use CON in other ways so it is still important to the game... but that is for another post.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, how is CON used then if not for Hit Points?

At 6 levels of exhaustion you die normally. Your CON modifier adds (or subtracts) to that number. For example, if you have a CON 16 (+3), you ignore the effects of the first 3 levels of exhaustion, and the 4th level would give disadvantage on ability checks. Now, you still have to recover all 4 levels as usual. It also means you would have to suffer a total of 9 levels of exhaustion before it kills you.

Since we play that going to 0 hp gives a level of exhaustion this is important, especially to warrior-types. You don't need the CON for hp, so you can still have a good number of hp and thus avoid going to 0 hp, and so avoid the level of exhaustion.

To me, this also makes more sense because exhaustion usually is tied to physical trauma affecting the body (no food or water, forced marches, extreme cold, etc.) which is what CON is about.

It also removes some of the hp = "meat" argument, enforcing the idea of hp being more abstract.

Now, if you prefer more the "meat" side of hp, or maybe using a variant of the vitality concept, it still works. You would use your CON (or half CON IMO) for physical meat and then hp otherwise becomes totally abstract. I've thought about it, and it would work fine if you wanted to use it in some form.

 

[Bawylie]

How long do your combats take?
How many rounds?
How many minutes?
What’s “too” long?
What’s just right?
What’s too short?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

If I'm divining your goals correctly, it seems like doubling all damage would be a mathematically less laborious way to get the same basic time-saving/threat-heightening effect.

Your ideas about ability scores, hit points, and exhaustion are interesting. It might be redundant if you rolled Constitution saves to avoid exhaustion a lot, but weirdly, you don't -- most exhaustion comes automatically in 5E. So since I think most everyone would agree that high-Con characters ought to be harder to exhaust, what you're doing there makes a lot of sense.

I'm of two minds about changing the key ability score for hit points. I get what you're trying to do there, big picture. But what you propose makes maxing out your key ability score even more important, and in my eyes one-ability-score-itis is already a problem in 5E. I'd suggest using your third-highest ability score instead, or even something crazy like a random ability score (rerolled each time you level up), but those both seem awfully contrived. If we're going with the "hit points don't represent meat and which ability score makes them better is arbitrary" route, I think the Gordian solution is to not use an ability score to determine hit points at all. For people who are fine with the basic 5E damage balance: use proficiency bonus instead. For people like you who want to cut the bloat: just use the dice straight.

 

[Immoralkickass]

I have the opposite problem - I think most monters don't live long enough. Most monsters, even those with lots of hp, would be lucky to live to Round 3.

If you halve the HPs of monsters, i dont think combat will be fun or balanced. Every fight would be a matter of who goes first and who strikes first. Damage would be too important, and abilities that inflict conditions, control the battlefield or utility would vastly be useless. Even healing (especially healing numbers) would be made even more useless, as enemies are always one good hit away from dying (and thus reducing the damage taken).

 

[Shiroiken]

If I'm divining your goals correctly, it seems like doubling all damage would be a mathematically less laborious way to get the same basic time-saving/threat-heightening effect.

I saw this method used in 4E to great effect. In 5E, I'd suggest just modifying the monster side of the board, letting the PCs remain unchanged. Monsters have half HP, but deal double damage. It mathematically works out the same, and doesn't pester the players to adjust. With players unfamiliar with the monster side of things, they may not even realize the change.

 

[ccs]

Obviously you're talking about in 4e, right?

Because I've never experienced combat taking too long in BECMi/1e/2e/3x/PF or 5e because of HP bloat.
Often the opposite. Everyone wants to get 2-3 rounds of attacks in on foes, but their HPs vanish after about a round & a half. And that's with me giving most things max HP instead of the average listed.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I have the opposite problem - I think most monters don't live long enough.

This.

 

[CubicsRube]

@dnd4vr note that using the hp and damage ranges in the monster manual while not explicity laid out, is RAW. So you can easily use the ranges in the book wothout a special rule to make weak or elite versions of monsters.

Players are a different story.

For the same reason as you, I don't like the necessity of CON. I'd prefer if CON or any other modifier was not added to HP at all. CON is already very useful for a number of important saves. But your way works too.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think if you make that change you'll end up with the game being rocket tag, which is significantly not in the players' favor. (Monsters are disposable, but in any campaign where players invest in their characters, the PCs are not.)

I'm running a high level (18th) campaign right now and I haven't seen the issue you're referring to. And this is my newbie group, meaning the characters aren't at all optimised. Are you adding additional monsters to encounters to increase the challenge, or something to that effect? Is it that many of your monsters have resistance and the PCs don't have the right tools to pierce it? Note that it's not that I don't believe this is happening to you; it's simply that it isn't happening to me and I'm trying to find the cause of the difference.

I would suggest starting out by decreasing monster HP by 1/3rd and increasing damage by 50%. If combats are still dragging, you can always increase to -50% / +100%, but like I said that seems to me like it would be overkill.