D&D 3E/3.5 Why 3.5 Worked

So we were talking about what level of optimization breaks the game. As far as I know, optimization didn't have levels like that. ;)

That said, level 11 only broke for some people, not everyone. It wasn't the game that broke down at higher levels. It was that some people's tolerance for the power level the game reached that broke down. Level 11 was no problem for me and my group. The game was not broken for us at any level under epic.
Whoops, that was an incomplete post. What I was going to say was that level 11 is a breakpoint - for me - in 3.5. You must have psychic powers because you guessed where my post was supposed to go!
 

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5e trades fixing fundamental flaws of 3e(fundamental to some people) and introduced fundamental flaws of its own.

For example, it was good to lower the excessive plusses of 3e, but bounded accuracy went too far and over bounded. +10 over 20 levels, rather than +6 would have been much better.

3e had too much choice(again for some people) and that made it overly complex, but 5e has removed almost character all choice from the game, and that's a bad thing. Beyond picking class, race and subclass, there's very little choice to be made and most of it is what spells you learn. More feats, subclasses and such would be much better. Not to 3e levels, but certainly more than 5e has given.

This goes along with the above, but the release rate for new content is way too low for 5e. 3e was way too high, but beyond monster books there has been very little actual content released for 5e and that makes for a more boring game. I'm not saying 5e is boring, but it's a lot less fun than it could be.
This is all subjective and always will be. For you, the release schedule for 5e is too slow/inadequate. For me it's perfect and is working a treat for WotC too. There will never be agreement here.

PF2E should meet your needs for new content but is almost guaranteed to run into the 'Death by bloat' syndrome of 3.x, 4e and PF1E. Choose your path.
 

@Maxperson on the definition of broken being what one will accept. I see your point there, but just because there isn't a 100% consensus on broken vs. not broken doesn't mean that there can't be a majority.

I wanted to share something that I think most would accept as broken just to see where your calibration level is.

We converted over long-running AD&D 2nd characters who were in like 18-19th level. I had a human fighter duel classed to magic user, who in bringing over thanks to PrCs I was able to get 9th level spells as well as being decent martially.

In order to run with the various long-lasting and possible short term buffs, I required a rather sophisticated spreadsheet not to slow down play. It had various Shapechange forms as well as a bunch of other buffs, what they adjusted, and columns to turn them on or off to automatically recalculate my ability scores and other modifiers. It needed to keep track of half a dozen different bonus types that would overlap, so spells would have a different effect depending on what other spells I had up. I think it was 5 tabs long at the end between the main display page and the supporting pages.

This would definitely have slowed down the table greatly if attempting to run it without this level of preparation, as well as turned the game into a huge bookkeeping chore.

For you, is that broken as a game? I'm not talking about game balance (I could - the character was a vastly superior melee combatant than any of the martials), but just in terms of not being playable at the table without a complex spreadsheet that took me hours to write just to keep track of the interaction between various spell effects, ability score change ripple
I wouldn't call that a broken game. It is a bit more complex than the rest of the game, but whether it's broken still depends on the person. Druids were similar with their Wildshape ability. I played a melee wildshape druid once........once. I don't use spreadsheets, so I had to figure out all of my bonuses with the most common shapes I changed into and keep track of those, plus any I might get from other players or NPCs. It was more work than play for me, so I didn't do it again. However, another player at my table loved tracking things like that and he played that sort of character more than once just fine. It worked for him.
 


This is all subjective and always will be. For you, the release schedule for 5e is too slow/inadequate. For me it's perfect and is working a treat for WotC too. There will never be agreement here.

PF2E should meet your needs for new content but is almost guaranteed to run into the 'Death by bloat' syndrome of 3.x, 4e and PF1E. Choose your path.
Pathfinder upped the power level that 3e had and that was already a bit too high in my opinion. I also think that Paizo releases too frequently, like WotC did with 3e. I'd be happy with 1-3 crunch releases a year, which is significantly lower than where 3e was and where Paizo is.
 

For the fourth or fifth time in this thread - telling us to ignore a rule because it was unworkable supports the point that the rule was no good.

Of course in real life people would often house rule and just make things up and not follow the process - like in editions prior and editions since - because the rule was bad.

Again, nothing about the guidelines for adjusting monsters was unworkable. They are really good rules and I've used them a lot. It's great to have all the consequences of adjusting HD or level set out for you. It's great to have guidelines for estimating CR. All of those were good things. They weren't bad rules.

Your argument seems to be that they were "unworkable" because you had to use them, and because you had to use them they were bad because they were time consuming.

But you didn't have to use them. You only used them when you needed to.

a) You could always build encounters out of unmodified monsters drawn from published sources like monster manuals, just as you had in prior editions of the game. You just just writethree orcs, 1 ogre, and be done. And if you did that, and you weren't confident of your skills, you had at least an estimation of how difficult that encounter would be which is not something you had in a prior edition. But if it is burdensome to make a bunch of customized monsters for every encounter, why are you doing it? You brought that on yourself. Nothing forced you to do that.

b) You could always choose not to stat out any NPC for which you were unlikely to need a full stat block. You could always write, "Jalob Sharp, Tout (Rog3)" or "Avard Haysworth, Mayor (Expert7)", figuring out hit points or skill bonuses or whatever if and only if it came up. There is no rule against that technique and it certainly wasn't invented by editions after 3e or deprecated by 3e.

c) You could always work backwards to the precise stat block starting from some assumptions. If there is one take away that anyone reading my response should remember it is there is no such thing as an illegal stat block. No stat block you could make up breaks the rules. You are allowed to make up any stat block you want. Then, if you have a desire to do so, you can always work backwards to what the fully detailed stat block looks like in order to justify all your numbers. Of course this is easier if your stat block conveniently looks a lot like a standard stat block with few numerical deviations so that reconciling everything is less of a headache, but if your starting point was plus or minus one or two points off, that's not a big deal, and can be if you feel the need to conform for some reason always be justified using the rules. There are no limits on what you are allowed to create as a DM. There are tools there to help you create highly detailed balanced foes, and that's a good thing. But they are their to solve problems, and not create them.

d) Most adjustments were actually very easy to accomplish, especially if your goal is to just generate a quick stat block for combat. The things that took a lot of time were allocating skill points, detailed spell lists, and detailed equipment lists - the same things that actually take a lot of time when making any D&D character. But, for many foes, all that was pretty much irrelevant. For better or worse, most skills were completely irrelevant to combat. You don't need to figure out what a dinosaur's exact skill allocation is, any more than you needed to figure out the NWP's of an NPC in 2e. You don't need to assign it spells or equipment. Most adjustments to a monster didn't adjust the monsters spell lists. Combat was only going to last about 3 rounds anyway, so why do you need to know more than 5 or so spells that an opponent has available? Why can't you just pick plausible spells should you discover you need to do so? And why do you need to worry about all that equipment anyway? Remember, it's just suggested wealth by level, and it's certainly not that important to building an NPC to make sure you have the suggested wealth by level exactly right to produce some hypothetical suggested CR for an NPC. And if the encounter went in ways you didn't expect, it's easy to just calculate the foes 'Sense Motive' or 'Bluff' bonus on the fly. You aren't breaking any rules even if rules there are to do so. You can always use the rules to work out the rest of the details later. I can assign a +12 sense motive bonus and work out later where the rest of the skill points were spent, if I need to.

e) You can always reuse your own work. Once you've created a 7th level Wizard, all 7th level Wizards can be pretty darn similar. Once you have a 9th level "assassin" all similarly skilled assassins can be similarly skilled. Yes, you can lavish time creating important reoccuring NPCs, but foes that are only going to last 3-5 rounds before dying and being never revisited don't need the same level of customization. And again, there is no such thing as an illegal stat block.

Now I'm sure a lot of people had problems with the system. One sure fire way to have a lot of problems with the system is play it outside of its built in assumptions, but then not treat the system as a set of guidelines based on built in assumptions. All those guidelines make explicit what assumptions that they are meant to work under. The more you departed from the assumptions of the guidelines, the more you needed to treat them as guidelines. Yet I know there were people out there who routinely broke the assumptions of the system as if those assumptions were NOT "rules" but then who played with the rest of the system as if they were "rules" that couldn't be broken. One common mistake I've heard about several times on the boards is attempting to make the majority of encounters with a single opponent, possessing PC classes, and requiring a lot of equipment in order to hit their hypothetical CR. The system is certainly not built on the assumption that every encounter is with a single PC classed foe. But that would have broken as a design pattern in every prior version of the game as well, and probably would break in more recent ones.

And it's always been hard in every edition of the game to actually make a single foe challenging simply because of the action economy. That's not a trouble new to 3e or that went away in new rule sets.

Finally, you seem to be making this logical fallacy that if I didn't exactly follow the guidelines all the time, that this must mean that they are bad guidelines. But that's not true. They are really good guidelines and the system for modifying monsters is a really good one that empowered a lot of creativity. It's not like 3e invented the process of making novel monsters or adjusting the HD of monsters in the monster manual. I mean I had 18HD manticores way back in 1989. All 3e did was call it out and empower it and provide really flexible tools for achieving all sorts of novelty. But it's not the fault of the system that players would pick up something like Rappan Athuk or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, with the all the highly complex detailed stat blocks of customized monsters and think that it was a requirement for them as amateur DMs to do that sort of thing for every encounter. If you acted like that, you can't blame the system. You brought that on yourself. You could have just used the monster manual and created complexity through novel combinations of monsters. You didn't have to adjust the HD of every monster, add a template, and throw on 6 PC class levels for every single encounter. That's on you.
 
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Coming from 2e, some of the DMs at my table felt that the expected treasure from WBL was Monty Haul, and therefore handed out significantly less treasure...So no, I wouldn't call it a choice per se. I don't doubt that there were DMs like yourself who could pull it off, but not everyone had the skill to do so. For those who lacked the skill, it wasn't a choice.

One of the great fallacies of RPG design is that if you just write good enough rules you can make great GMs as if the rules were 100% or even 50% of play. The rules of a game system are actually pretty small portion of the totality of what happens at a gaming table. Yes, can get in the way if they were poorly thought out (but these weren't), but no matter how good the rules you can't make a great RPG. Table top RPGs aren't like board gaming or video games.

The converse of this is true as well. You can't by the example of poor GMing alone prove that the rules are bad.

Your GM is guilty of treating guidelines as rules selectively. Having altered the assumptions of encounter design, he's treating CR and ECL as hard and fast rules rather than just guidelines built on the assumptions of other guidelines. At some level though I think you recognize that things like number of encounters per day, number of encounters per level, and range of challenge ratings you face are just guidelines. And heck, if the word "suggested" in "suggested wealth by level" doesn't clue you in that it is a guideline, I don't know what will.

But I think you are also ignoring something else as well. Simply treating all the guidelines as hard and fast rules doesn't guarantee anything either. It's really easy for a GM to follow the strict letter of the text and yet produce something that isn't fair and balanced. You can inflate or bury CR by treating guidelines for calculating CR as rules as well. And certainly, the CR's in the monster manuals aren't assigned by some mechanical process (though sometimes you might wonder if they would have been better assigned if they were).

So again, it's all guidelines - suggested encounters per gaming day, suggested encounters per level, suggested CR, suggested EL, suggested wealth by level. It's not mechanistic system that churns out good RP just by turning a crank. 4e tried to produce such a system and it failed utterly, because art can't be codified in a simple to use mechanistic system. Maybe one day we'll be able to mechanically produce art, but I guarantee the process for doing so won't be so simple you can put it in a 500 page rule book.

Finally, this is all tangential to the central point, which is that a GM needs only to produce the preparation for a game that they actually need. The fact that they produced a detailed toolbox for creating monsters does not mean that every stat block needs to be fully detailed. You don't break "the rules" to do only the preparation that's actually relevant to the session.
 



3.0 and 3.5 were great. Unfortunately they also had a few design flaws. Magic was too common, and too much needed in order to keep up with monsters/foes. We had a lot of choice, yes. But most of these choices were just an illusion. A fighter had to specialize, then double specialize and so on. Same thing for mages with spell specialization. We had the illusion of choice until the optimizers found out the best way to build such and such characters (summoning cleric here you are!). I thought the touch attack was great until I saw a summoner kill an ancient dragon with a horde of lantern archons on haste, bless and prayer. The dragon lasted a whole 2 rounds...

At the same time, this edition gave way to logical stats. No more THACO, Negative AC, Strength % (which was never quite right in my mind...), no more low saving throws. We saw the introduction Difficulty checks, a new good way to skills.

Yes the casters were off balance, it required a lot of tracking (all those bonuses...) but it was also very fun for the players' side. The DM had a lot more work but at least it helped them understanding their critters and monsters a lot more.

The third edition gave way to the fourth edition not out of failing but simply of franchise fatigue. The amount of work required for the DMs was simply to great. PathFinder knew that and that is why they launched a lot of adventure paths. They were cutting dowm DM's work a lot. But for the homebrewing DMs, third edition and PF were a lot of work.

Fourth edition went a bit too far in some direction and it left way for PF to exploit a niche. 4e had its flaws but it also had some really good points going for it. But 5ed really nailed it. Yep 3.5 ed didn't failed, it was just too much work for the DM.
 

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