D&D 3E/3.5 Why 3.5 Worked

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You pick your ability scores, skills, feats, and archetype. At certain levels you can Increase ability scores or take feats and skills. That sounds like plenty of choice to me.
Ability scores don't get picked as you go up on level. skills similarly don't change much for most PCs. Feats are optional, don't happen often, and have very few choices to pick from. There simply aren't many feats. Raising ability scores is minimal at best. You get two +1s or a +2 or a feat from a limited list every 4 levels.

So basically your "lots of choice" consists of picking stats and skills at first level, choosing a subclass once only at 3rd level, and making a choice once every 4 levels. Um, yeah. Lots. :rolleyes:
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
that is a more polite way to discuss this when different people love different editions.

amazing how we always end up in edition war threads.

Not at all amazing. Just human nature. We all experience emotional investment.

1) We really like a thing. We defend that thing, even if what is happening does no harm to the thing.

2) Nobody likes to admit they are wrong, and will shift to stronger and stronger rhetoric to avoid admitting that we were incorrect.

2a) Nobody will admit 1) or 2) is true.
 

Anoth

Adventurer
Ability scores don't get picked as you go up on level. skills similarly don't change much for most PCs. Feats are optional, don't happen often, and have very few choices to pick from. There simply aren't many feats. Raising ability scores is minimal at best. You get two +1s or a +2 or a feat from a limited list every 4 levels.

So basically your "lots of choice" consists of picking stats and skills at first level, choosing a subclass once only at 3rd level, and making a choice once every 4 levels. Um, yeah. Lots. :rolleyes:

that’s way More options that I need. I am going into choice paralysis. 😉

I want a system where I can pick up a game and go. Those are enough choices for me. No hero lab needed.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
that’s way More options that I need. I am going into choice paralysis. 😉

I want a system where I can pick up a game and go. Those are enough choices for me. No hero lab needed.
Suggesting that I'm arguing for a hero lab is a Strawman of my position. I'm not suggesting 3e levels of choice. A bit more would be nice, though.
 


Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Require? Only if you're submitting for publication. Who cares if the mook has Disguise +6 until it's actually required?

For the fourth or fifth time in this thread - telling us to ignore a rule because it was unworkable supports the point that the rule was no good.

Of course in real life people would often house rule and just make things up and not follow the process - like in editions prior and editions since - because the rule was bad.
 

JeffB

Legend
FWIW- and in the interest of the new "civility" mentions by Umbran, and a new year resolution to keep things light-

I actually do like 3.0- and run it on occasion- I ran a few sessions for my 8yo daughter using the Adventure Game from Y2K, my 20 yo Son , and my wife (not mentioning her age online-I'd like to see 2021) who is a non-gamer. Up to that 6-8 ish level, I enjoy it with a handful of houserules. And I absolutely feel nostalgic for that time period- it was a good time for D&D. I enjoy the "engine" and intent of the original D20 games, if not always the execution of the system as whole. I think a true revision by the original team-JT, MC, Skip- would likely have resulted in a much tighter/cleaner revision than the....um.....err…. civility Jeff, civility-....LESS EXPERIENCED designers that took on the 3.5 update.

Frankly- In some way I love each version of the game. I own the core books for each edition (except 3.5 , which owned for a long time, but found them redundant when playing PF/PFBB, so I sold them). They all have some things that annoy the beejesus out of me- but at the end of the day they all make for a fun D&D game and I'd sit down and play any one of the editions with anyone here and have a good time.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
@Maxperson on the definition of broken being what one will accept. I see your point there, but just because there isn't a 100% consensus on broken vs. not broken doesn't mean that there can't be a majority.

I wanted to share something that I think most would accept as broken just to see where your calibration level is.

We converted over long-running AD&D 2nd characters who were in like 18-19th level. I had a human fighter duel classed to magic user, who in bringing over thanks to PrCs I was able to get 9th level spells as well as being decent martially.

In order to run with the various long-lasting and possible short term buffs, I required a rather sophisticated spreadsheet not to slow down play. It had various Shapechange forms as well as a bunch of other buffs, what they adjusted, and columns to turn them on or off to automatically recalculate my ability scores and other modifiers. It needed to keep track of half a dozen different bonus types that would overlap, so spells would have a different effect depending on what other spells I had up. I think it was 5 tabs long at the end between the main display page and the supporting pages.

This would definitely have slowed down the table greatly if attempting to run it without this level of preparation, as well as turned the game into a huge bookkeeping chore.

For you, is that broken as a game? I'm not talking about game balance (I could - the character was a vastly superior melee combatant than any of the martials), but just in terms of not being playable at the table without a complex spreadsheet that took me hours to write just to keep track of the interaction between various spell effects, ability score change ripple
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Of the many complaints about 3.X that are made, often for very understandable reasons, this is one I understand the least.

You do not have to make certain that PC's have the correct "wealth by level". In 10+ years of DMing 3.X, I've never once calculated PC wealth or tried to calculate treasure based on expected wealth by level. Likewise, while I have on occasion gone through the step by step process of modifying a monster to achieve a custom result, no one is forced by the system to either modify monsters in the first place (as opposed to just playing them straight out of a Monster Manual or other resource) or use some system when creating a monster. Whatever you do as a DM is perfectly right and valid - assign hit points, skills, or whatever as you see fit. Or don't. Just write down the minimum you need to know to run an encounter, and fill in the details on the fly when and if you find you need them.



Sure, I can see that. But that is a burden you put on yourself, and not something imposed by the system. It's something of an open question if a system can actually impose anything on a GM, but what you are talking about is simply guidelines that exposed the underlying math, and not hard and fast rules that a GM has to abide by. (Seriously, is there such a thing as a hard and fast rule that GMs have to abide by?)
You could of course ignore wealth by level. However, that meant also tossing out CR as a tool for estimating encounter difficulty, since WBL was factored into that difficulty.

Coming from 2e, some of the DMs at my table felt that the expected treasure from WBL was Monty Haul, and therefore handed out significantly less treasure. As result, the party kept getting their butts kicked after the first few levels, and deaths were frequent. This encouraged the 5MW because we were so below par that we had to Nova hard to get through a single encounter, with maybe just enough to spare in case something attacked while we were resting. These DMs then complained about those habits.

I tried explaining to them what was happening, but they didn't listen. One DM went so far as to rig an encounter to "prove" his point that WBL was overpowered. He placed two hidden rogues in trees and spent the party's entire WBL budget on invisibility potions. He gave them surprise and annihilated the party. 2 members were dying before we could act. The other two could probably have run away but tried to save their companions, and were subsequently easily dispatched as well. He claimed this proved that WBL was overpowered. When I pointed out that he had set up this encounter specifically so that we had no chance, and that moreover the party wasn't likely to blow all of their treasure on a single encounter, he dismissed my analysis and told us it had all been a dream.

Shockingly, whenever I ran 3.x (using WBL) the party could typically get through multiple encounters. Eventually those DMs picked up from my example that that's how the game was meant to work. Death wasn't uncommon in my games, but the turnover wasn't nearly as high, and 5MW was less of an issue, although it could rear it's head if the dice were against the party.

Sure, if you ignore WBL and ignore the encounter guidelines and ignore the monster design rules you could run in a very 1e/2e style that was generally pretty good. I only knew one DM who ever mastered that method. It wasn't me. (Although in fairness I was relatively inexperienced as a DM back then.)

So no, I wouldn't call it a choice per se. I don't doubt that there were DMs like yourself who could pull it off, but not everyone had the skill to do so. For those who lacked the skill, it wasn't a choice. Sure, I could leave off tallying skill points or the like if I was feeling lazy. But especially for a caster, not picking low level spells and then using them at whim would have felt like cheating. If the players have to memorize their spells, then so should my NPCs. That's fair. I did occasionally leave off memorizing all their spells, but in those cases they were considered to have been expended earlier in the day.

3.x was exhausting for me to run (and even to a lesser extent to play, as I had some characters that required a spreadsheet). It was not an easy game to run RAW.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
BTW, something I said before. Don't take my comments that 3.x was broken as hate for the system. When it came out, I loved it. While 5e has surpassed it, 3.5 was my next favorite version of D&D ever. Especially from the player side.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't parts that just aren't workable, such as high levels imbalances between casters and non-casters, playing with all the player crunch options, differing levels of system mastery leading to extreme differences in character strength, and one-trick-pony builds like trippers or diplomancers that took advantage of a rule subsystem with unbeatable numbers. A firm DM with trusting players could definitely avoid those - through bans, house rules, and the like.

A game can be both broken, and good when you put in the work to avoid the broken bits.
 

Remove ads

Top