How would you change the new Star Wars trilogy

I highly doubt JJ Abrams is happy with the final theatrical cut of the film.

JJ Abrams has never directed anything that wasn't a steaming pile of Bantha poo doo, and the only decent screenplay he's ever done was for 'Regarding Henry' - hardly an action adventure movie. Both of the things he got famous for on TV - 'Alias' and 'Lost' - built their success on the X-Files method of hard telegraphing that 'something is out there' even though the writer has no freaking clue what it is and will never be able to deliver on all the foreshadowing. In short, he's a hack.

As soon as he was attached to the project, I knew we were going to have an unappealing illogical mess.
 

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No, they didn't. They loved it. It wasn't the new stuff that people rejected - it was the old stuff.

Let me back up. You are repeating a very common Hollywood excuse. You first really need to understand that Hollywood is bad at making movies, and they don't really understand why this movie succeeds or this movie fails. So they tell themselves convenient excuses about formulas and marketing and timing and what have you. Hollywood told themselves that the reason the prequels didn't succeed was that they were too different from the formula that made Star Wars successful. But it wasn't a formula that made Star Wars successful, at least not in the sense that they think. What made the original trilogy successful was a combination of things, but they all come down to quality craftsmanship. Quality special effects work. Quality writing. Quality musical score. Quality art direction. But most especially, quality writing that deftly introduced compelling characters, deftly moved forward the plot, and deftly mixed faster scenes of action with slower scenes of character development.

The prequels didn't fail because they were novel. In fact, the novelty of them was the main thing that the fan community accepted, and the main thing that makes them somewhat rewatchable. It's a completely different style of story than the first trilogy, involving a grand political stage with a tragic hero at its center and a love story. And it's got all sorts of great settings, costumes, cultures, and sci-fi gizmos, plus absolute the best fight choreography of any Star Wars movies and a great sound track with Williams doing something really original (for him) and bringing it choral voices. Even people who hate the movies love the novelty of 'Duel of the Fates'. All the new stuff (with the notable exception of the Gunguns and their mascot Jar-Jar) is great.

What people hated was the old stuff, and the reason that they hated it was that it simply was not well done.

People knew coming into the prequels that there were three main story beats that had to happen in the prequels. Anakin had to befriend Obi-Wan and form a great friendship with him. Akakin had to fall in love with the mother of Luke. And then Anakin had to turn to the dark side and betray the Jedi. And the problem the prequels have is that although Lucas knew those were the story beats, he really had no good idea how that had happened. He didn't have the writing chops to make any part of that story engrossing or to make the motivations of the characters believable. That's what kills the prequels.

When you think about what people really hate about the prequels it's the absence of a really believable friendship between Obi-Wan and Anakin. We don't have a lot of that great banter that we have between Han and Luke, and we don't get really sold on the fact that the two care for each other. The lines between the two are often awful, and although each man is a good actor they just can't do anything with the material. It's too didactic. It's too forced. It's too obvious. Likewise, there is a plot hoop that has to be jumped through where Padme falls in love with Anakin, but again the dialogue that is supposed to set this up is just awful, and it doesn't convincingly sell the romance. There chemistry in the scenes. There is no believable motivation on Padme's part. It comes off as corny and stupid, and is inadvertently funny when we should be moved. It fails to make the viewer want to, as my daughter would say, "'ship the characters". Likewise, we aren't given a compelling reason for Anakin's fall. It's sudden. It's poorly motivated. There are some ideas that are supposed to be driving Anakin's fall, but Lucas lacks the vision and the writing chops to really explore them well.

So it was actually the 'old' stuff that turned people off to the prequels - not the new stuff.

And what's interesting is that though the writing was weak, there are enough good ideas in the overall plot, that when you hand over these ideas to another team of writers, you get something like "The Clone Wars", which despite it's limited ambitions, and it's format, manages to do a better job of making the friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan believable, "ship" the two star-crossed lovers, and address the stress and conflict that leads up to Anakin deciding that from his point of view the Jedi are evil. Now, it's not great, but the fan community just ate it up. In fact there are a lot of fans that feel that the characters in "The Clone Wars", like Ahsoka Tano are some of the most compelling characters in all of Star Wars.

Sure, there are always going to be people who dislike when Star Wars deviates from the tone of the original trilogy, although I'd argue that those people tend to overlook how dark the original trilogy was because they are just so used to it and still look at it with child-like eyes that they don't really think about it. So you have people who didn't like Rogue One exploring ideas like there is no such thing as a perfectly clean war. But a ton of the fans think Rogue One is at least the equal of the original trilogy precisely because while it stayed true to the setting, it introduced a lot of new things. Plus, one of the greatest 'Star Wars' fandom scenes is the scene in 'Clerks' where the protagonists debate whether the victory at Endor was clean, since the unfinished battle station almost certainly still had civilian contractors working on it. So this is not an idea that the fandom hasn't thought about.



This is incidentally the same sort of thing that happens to the Matrix trilogy. The first movie was a good movie, but it was filled with plot holes. It's one of the few movies I watched in the cinema twice, and after coming out of it the second time I told the group I was with that though it was a great movie, if they didn't patch the foundation of the movie by patching the plot holes, then they wouldn't be able to successfully build anything from it because without a firm set of rules and explanation of "why" eventually everything would be just gibberish.

The sequel trilogy kept writing itself into corners and then writing itself out of it by breaking established rules. Things kept getting less and less logical, and more and more just pure spectacle with no heart. That deft mix of pacing between action and slower moments to build character that are the hallmark of the original trilogy (and most of Rogue One, which was better paced on second viewing than I remembered) just isn't in the sequels, with the result that after 7 hours of movie we still haven't had anyone in the new "golden trio" meaningfully interact with each other.
Not to challenge your opinions (many if which I agree with), but your characterization of the OT as having great writing and plotting utterly fails the sniff test eith Ep4 -- which was entirely saved in edit. The movie originally intended before another hand was brought in to save it in edit was a mess much along the lines of the PT. Really, Lucas is a mad genius but desperately needs a minder for the details and to often say, "No, George."

To drift back into opinion, the OT is not a masterwork of plotting and the dialog is quite often cornball. It succeeded because it was opera -- sweeping themes of black and white -- in a confused time and had good soace wizards with laser swords. It's fantastic pop culture stuff, not a cinematic masterpiece.

But, yes, Hollywood has no idea what makes for a successful movie. Given the huge finacial incentives involved, I'd say no one does, at least consistantly.
 

I think they can innovate, they probably won't though.

Yes, I think the Mandalorian shows that it is possible to do new stuff with Star Wars. But they'll probably never stray far from familiar things.

I wonder what Disney's plans are with Star Wars, now that they made such a mess out of their soft-reboot trilogy, and what does this mean for the future of their Star Wars land? They've built a ton of really expensive stuff around the new trilogy, only to have the movies end on such a disappointing note. Will we keep seeing Rey's and Kylo Ren's in their theme parks? Or will they get rid of all that once they've succesfully re-rebooted the franchise?

JJ Abrams has never directed anything that wasn't a steaming pile of Bantha poo doo

I think that's a bit harsh and unfair. I really enjoyed The Force Awakens for example, so to me he clearly is a skilled director. But I think he should leave the writing to better people. I think the mess that we got with the third movie is the result of studio meddling and Rian Johnson having a completely different vision of Star Wars from JJ Abrams, along with the writer for Batman V Superman (and Justice League). But I'd love to hear JJ Abrams own thoughts on this. Maybe an interview will leak that explains what happened behind the scenes.
 
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To the OP:

Firstly, I've enjoyed the movies, so there's not a lot structurally I'd change. That said, while it's my favorite film of the sequels, TLJ is also the weak link as far as the trilogy goes. This is primarily because it doesn't significantly alter the story overall. Plucky, short-on-resources heroes against overwhelming war machine is pretty much the start and end of the film, just with fewer resources and more pluck at the end. It needs a game change moment, like Vader/Luke in ESB or even the introduction of the clones in AotC so that the overall story can progress in a different way. (Vader's revelation in ESB changed the story from defeat the Empire to save Vader and defeat the Empire, for example.)

As such, I'd alter one scene in TLJ and add one at the end (trimming Canto Bight (not deleting, trimming) a tad to get the time).

The scene is the confrontation in front of Snoke. Instead of a killing strike on Snoke, I'd make it a mortal wound. Snoke, badly wounded and incapable of defending himself, calls on his guards to protect him while a few of the guard begin to drag him to safety. This changes the nature of the fight from generic guards of dead guy on heroes where exhaustion of hitpoints is the goal to a fight through guards to prevent Snoke from escaping -- a goal shared by both Rey and Ren but for different reasons. This also gives the opportunity to reshoot that fight scene, which is pretty weak overall (there's a number of missed beats where the stunt guys have to 'juggle' to cover).

The end of the scene is all guards dead but Snoke managing to escape. This leads back into the confrontation between Rey and Ren for the lightsaber as Ren makes the appeal to Rey to join him in hunting down Snoke and taking over the First Order to rule and Rey rejecting that.

Then, at the end of the movie, I'd have a scene where Snoke arrives on Exogal and beseeches Palpatine for help. Palpatine is entombed in a huge medical contraption that's obviously siphoning power from the very planet itself (dark side force source). Palpatine reveals that his plan has finally come to fruition with Snoke preparing Ren and that Snoke has no further use. At which point Palpatine siphons the life out of Snoke which allows him to partially emerge from his tomb as the lich. End scene on his laughter echoes out into a vast area where ships are being built.

In the Rise, I'd add a few changes -- the way that Hux goes out is a waste. I'd have him save the trio and then tell them about the zombie ships (crewed by Sith automatons, hence they're lack of initiative) and declare that Ren humiliated him and then replaced him as the leader of the 1st Order -- a slight he will avenge. Skip the blaster to the leg -- Hux was clearly more cunning than that -- and just have him caught during the escape so he can hurl invective in the face of his replacement before being executed. This is a better end to this character.
 

HA HA! No.

It could have been ... fine, good even, if Rise was good. If it hadn't been JJ doing it. Well, let me explain.

I think, sometimes, we expect too much. I keep thinking back to Lucas watching TFA and being horribly disappointed, while Iger thinking that ... you know, of course it wasn't going to be new, they had to bring people back in after the prequels.

...and yet. JJ Abrams is very good at the bare basics of rebooting a franchise (Star Trek) but terrible past that (Into Darkness) because you can only remix nostalgia so much. At a certain point, you need new ideas. You need fresh blood.

And that was Rian Johnson. I could expound upon this at length (and sometime, I will) but TLJ really opened up the possibilities for the franchise in the same way that ESB did. I think people truly forget how shocking that movie was at the time. He set it up, not just for a thrilling (and different) conclusion, but for a universe of possibilities.

And then, Rise. Which, eh, it's just thinly-connected fan service. If they had to do it over again, maybe they stick to the original plan (three different directors) or have a unified whole, but the JJ-Rian-JJ is the worst possible outcome. The franchise is practically a license to print money, so it wasn't going to fail in the hands of a halfway competent director, but it could have really succeeded ... IT COULDA BEENA CONTENDAH!
I agree on TLJ -- it was really good. But, it didn't really establish a new direction at the end, it just left a bunch of possibilities in the air. I'd argue that the middle episode in a trilogy's job isn't to expand possibilities as a primary goal, but to introduce a major change in the story that must be sorted in the final episode. While I adore TLJ -- it did a lot of really smart and interesting things -- it didn't set the stage well for the followup. As such, JJ had nothing to latch onto to make tRoS and so just did what he does well -- reboot and add excitement.
 

I think, sometimes, we expect too much. I keep thinking back to Lucas watching TFA and being horribly disappointed, while Iger thinking that ... you know, of course it wasn't going to be new, they had to bring people back in after the prequels.

Lucas said in an interview that Hollywood is afraid to do anything new. When he made the original Star Wars, that was a new idea. Hollywood took a gamble and won. But movie making has changed (in his opinion) and now everything is safe. While I ultimately hated his prequels, I agree with his sentiments.

...and yet. JJ Abrams is very good at the bare basics of rebooting a franchise (Star Trek) but terrible past that (Into Darkness) because you can only remix nostalgia so much. At a certain point, you need new ideas. You need fresh blood.

To be honest I didn't like the first Star Trek movie he made either. I thought it was loud, obnoxious and dumb, and it looked like the entire movie had been shot through the reflection of a window.

And that was Rian Johnson. I could expound upon this at length (and sometime, I will) but TLJ really opened up the possibilities for the franchise in the same way that ESB did. I think people truly forget how shocking that movie was at the time. He set it up, not just for a thrilling (and different) conclusion, but for a universe of possibilities.

There's a big difference though. The original Star Wars was a stand alone movie. The two movies that followed were all written by the same people, with the same vision. Lucas was involved with all three movies. In contrast, The Force Awakens was not intended as a stand alone movie. It had a vision, and Rian Johnson had a totally different vision with The Last Jedi that killed off a lot of the things set up in The Force Awakens. Then JJ Abrams returned for Rise of Skywalker, and obviously didn't agree with Rian's vision, so we get a different take yet again that kills off most of the direction that Last Jedi was going in. Now add in the high likelyhood that Disney also meddled in JJ's vision with the last movie, and we get a big steaming mess. There was no overal vision for the whole trilogy.

And then, Rise. Which, eh, it's just thinly-connected fan service. If they had to do it over again, maybe they stick to the original plan (three different directors) or have a unified whole, but the JJ-Rian-JJ is the worst possible outcome. The franchise is practically a license to print money, so it wasn't going to fail in the hands of a halfway competent director, but it could have really succeeded ... IT COULDA BEENA CONTENDAH!

I agree that they should have had the same vision throughout all three movies, and not have three completely different ideas on where to go with the story. I don't think it is a matter of director incompetence. I believe it is a matter of studio incompetence.

While I adore TLJ -- it did a lot of really smart and interesting things -- it didn't set the stage well for the followup. As such, JJ had nothing to latch onto to make tRoS and so just did what he does well -- reboot and add excitement.

I'd say that it didn't set the stage for the followup at all. It ignored several plotlines from the previous movie, such as the Knights of Ren. It didn't set up the threat for the next movie, and instead killed off the main villain a movie too soon (Kylo Ren clearly was never meant to be the main threat nor a replacement for Snoke). TLJ does have some interesting ideas (such as Rey and Kylo's force connection), but it presented no satisfying answers to the questions that The Force Awakens raised on purpose and didn't leave anywhere for the third movie to go.
 
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