D&D 3E/3.5 the 3e skill system

[Sepulchrave II]

Much as I love 3rd edition, the skill system would benefit from a deep overhaul. There are some rather egregious examples: a 2nd-level Bard with 16 Charisma, using core rules only, can pump their Diplomacy check to +18 [Edit: +19] without magic. Such a character can reliably change NPC attitudes from unfriendly to friendly, or from hostile to indifferent.

The skill list is too expansive. It needs to be compressed into 12 or 14 skills, and certain skills need to be made into class features (Spellcraft, UMD). Knowledge skills need re-thinking and/or consolidating. Craft skills need an overhaul.

Synergy bonuses should be abandoned.

Spells which grant bonuses to skills should be rethought, re-levelled and probably mostly abandoned. Class features and feats which grant bonuses to skills should be carefully reconsidered.

Other than that, it works fine.

 

[Maxperson]

Interesting.

I still think they went too far the other way in 5e, and reduced the skills into irrelevance.

My search for a better skill system will have to move on.

There really were only a few skills that needed to be pumped up the way people here are talking about. Spot, hide and concentration were the big ones. The game boosted the hide and spot skills of monsters, and damage rose rapidly so concentration were necessary. The rest of the time it was more DM error than anything else.

A tough DC was 15, challenging 20, and formidable 25. By 5th level you could have 8 ranks and +4 in your prime stat easily, so you were at 12 in skills you were good at. That makes a tough task a 3 or higher on the roll, challenging 8 or higher and formidable needed a 13. If the PC were hitting heroic DCs(30) or nearly impossible DCs(40) often, something has gone very wrong.

The issue was that DMs often felt like a task should be challenging, but Cormak had a +15 which would mean he only needed a 5 or higher, which was easy. So they incorrectly inflated DCs to make it a challenging task, which in turn caused players to enter the arms race and put points into maxing out skills to compensate.

If the DM just assigned appropriate DCs, the players really didn't feel compelled to hyper specialize in a few skills, and cross-class skills were actually useful. My players learned fairly quickly that 5-8 ranks + stat bonus in a skill made you pretty darn good at it. They still dutifully pumped up the skills mentioned above that the game required hyper specialization in, but they had a wide variety of skill that they used and were good at.

 

[schneeland]

Much as I love 3rd edition, the skill system would benefit from a deep overhaul. There are some rather egregious examples: a 2nd-level Bard with 16 Charisma, using core rules only, can pump their Diplomacy check to +18 without magic.

Are you sure? If I am not mistaken, the maximum skill rank for 2nd level is 5 (3 + level), so with an ability modifier of +3, I only arrive at a +8. Still solid, but not completely off the charts.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Much as I love 3rd edition, the skill system would benefit from a deep overhaul. There are some rather egregious examples: a 2nd-level Bard with 16 Charisma, using core rules only, can pump their Diplomacy check to +18 without magic. Such a character can reliably change NPC attitudes from unfriendly to friendly, or from hostile to indifferent.

The skill list is too expansive. It needs to be compressed into 12 or 14 skills, and certain skills need to be made into class features (Spellcraft, UMD). Knowledge skills need re-thinking and/or consolidating. Craft skills need an overhaul.

Synergy bonuses should be abandoned.

Spells which grant bonuses to skills should be rethought, re-levelled and probably mostly abandoned. Class features and feats which grant bonuses to skills should be carefully reconsidered.

Other than that, it works fine.

I dont think i agree with a single part of this. Including the bit about the bard.

Reliably? Heck no.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Are you sure? If I am not mistaken, the maximum skill rank for 2nd level is 5 (3 + level), so with an ability modifier of +3, I only arrive at a +8. Still solid, but not completely off the charts.

Even if it can pump up to +18 its not an accurate statement. Hostile isnt restricted to a specific range. Furthermore, some npcs can have personality differences that increase or decrease benchmarks fir such things. ALSO hostile verses non hostile is not the only difference between success and failure.

 

[Maxperson]

Are you sure? If I am not mistaken, the maximum skill rank for 2nd level is 5 (3 + level), so with an ability modifier of +3, I only arrive at a +8. Still solid, but not completely off the charts.

Bards got enough ranks to get to 5 in the three other skills that all had diplomacy synergy, so now we are at +14. Then you can add skill focus for +3 more, so now we are at +17. Not sure where the final 1 is coming from.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Are you sure? If I am not mistaken, the maximum skill rank for 2nd level is 5 (3 + level), so with an ability modifier of +3, I only arrive at a +8. Still solid, but not completely off the charts.

I'm really rusty, but synergy from 5 ranks in intimidate, sense motive, others, skill focus feat, and a class ability?

 

[schneeland]

Ok, I forgot about skill synergy (it's been a while since we played 3e).

 

[tetrasodium]

Much as I love 3rd edition, the skill system would benefit from a deep overhaul. There are some rather egregious examples: a 2nd-level Bard with 16 Charisma, using core rules only, can pump their Diplomacy check to +18 without magic. Such a character can reliably change NPC attitudes from unfriendly to friendly, or from hostile to indifferent.

The skill list is too expansive. It needs to be compressed into 12 or 14 skills, and certain skills need to be made into class features (Spellcraft, UMD). Knowledge skills need re-thinking and/or consolidating. Craft skills need an overhaul.

Synergy bonuses should be abandoned.

Spells which grant bonuses to skills should be rethought, re-levelled and probably mostly abandoned. Class features and feats which grant bonuses to skills should be carefully reconsidered.

Other than that, it works fine.

I just looked at the 5e sheet I'm using in my game & it has 18 skills... the 25-30 3.5 skill list was too much & there absolutely should have been a lot of skills rolled in as class features rather than getting squashed together. but 12-15 skills is wayy too few. There's not much meaningful spotlight from knowing a skill 2-3 other players at the table also probably know & will say "I want to roll that too"

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Bards got enough ranks to get to 5 in the three other skills that all had diplomacy synergy, so now we are at +14. Then you can add skill focus for +3 more, so now we are at +17. Not sure where the final 1 is coming from.

Half elf or Negotiator actually brings it to +19 not +18.