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D&D 5E Just One More Thing: The Power of "No" in Design (aka, My Fun, Your Fun, and BadWrongFun)

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Good evening, long time listener, first time caller, love the show...

First of all,

I can't believe no-one else called you on this nonsense. Of course RPG's are cars!

That said, I agree with the general point of the thesis, that cramming more and more and more stuff until someone explodes isn't better. More stuff isn't better.

But... more choices are better.

I don't want Warforged in my game. I don't want most of the hundred or so different races from the various books in my game, for that matter.
I don't want a couple of the classes, and a lot of the sub-classes, either.
And while we're at it, I don't want a Tarrasque.

But darn it, I want the option of all those things.

D&D 5th would already be unsustainably bloated if everything in every book was mandatory. But there's no harm in choices, only good. I read Artificer and thought "That's what I was trying to do with this alchemist NPC!" I read Xanathar's and thought, "Celestial Warlock? YES!"

I say this as someone who left D&D back in Second Edition, when the bloat got to be too much, and I discovered more rules lite play. I had all the "Complete" books, all the Forgotten Realms supplements, etc, and somewhere in my brain (I was just a kid, okay?) I thought, "I HAVE to use all this stuff, but I don't wanna!" And I started playing other stuff. Mainly Star Wars, but that's another rant.

Looking back, there's obvious design issues in AD&D 2e, but at the time, it was the bloat.

Flash forward to August, 2018. My wife, for her birthday, has required me to attend a D&D game with her. I'd looked at 3e and 4e in the intervening years. Didn't like it, though I did like some of the changes from 2e to 3e. So I was all ready to dislike playing 5th, anticipating a bloated, weighed-down experience. But, She Who Must Be Obeyed had decreed that I would play, so I made a Rogue, because those are my easy mode.

Anyway, I had a blast and we joined the group and over the next year I leveled that character to 20 just in time for the climax of the series. He didn't stay a rogue as I multi-ed into Ranger and later into cleric. (Why? Story Arc.) Anyway, I read the PHB, and other source books, and in the intervening 30ish years I'd learned the skill of picking and choosing, and now I run my own game on Roll20 three times a week. And I love it because I have all these choices.

That's also why when Paizo had those sales on humble bundle, I bought 'em all. Choices.

In conclusion, RPGs are totally cars.
Well...technically 3.x gives more choice in the game as a whole than all other editions combined. So while it also may have "stuff bloat" it is the raining champ on maximum amount of choices. Just saying.

Not just for players either. That statement works fir playera, dms, and players and dms together.
 

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There are a lot of players who pretty much auto-plan their feat tree as part of their concept. They want their character to the best they can be at the thing they are designed to be good at. I don't have a problem with that - you use the tools you have at hand and those players are approaching their character mechanically. However, you can also approach the character from the other end.
I don't know what you mean by approach the character. Do you mean think about the character's motivations? Do you mean think about how the character will achieve things as part of the action resolution process? Something else?

@DEFCON 1 seems to be asserting that, in 5e D&D, a free descriptor can be the main component of action resolution. If that claim was being made about HeroQuest revised, or about Fate, or even about Cortex+ Heroic, it might be plausible. Though even there there are limits - a player who builds a HQ revised character with the descriptor Best swordsman in the land but who puts a low rather than a high rating against it doesn't seem fully committed to the claim on behalf of his/her PC, and so one might expect some irony or self-realisation to result from play..

let's say the character's belief is "I am a deadly swordsman and I will prove myself the best in the land". That's a really cool character belief (like Burning Wheel good). I completely agree with DEFCON's take on how that belief works from a narrative perspective at the table as well. You don't need any mechanical support to do things this way. but that wasn't the point - the point was that the narrative side, the character belief side, is (or can be) a much more potent way of realizing that concept at the table. Obviously you need some mechanics in place, and good decisions about character build will help, but it doesn't need to be optimized.
But if I build a BW character with that Belief, who has a 3 Agility and Speed and no ranks in sword, then my character is unlikely to actually realise that Belief and earn a persona for it in that particular fashion.

I might earn Fate from that Belief with that character easily enough; and I might earn Persona from Embodiment or Mouldbreaker in which that Belief figures. But the BW rulebook itself has stipulated ranks for expertise, and tells us that an expert typicaly has exponent 5 ((I'm on p 15 of Revised, but the chart in Gold is the same). So my Exp 0, Beginner's Luck sword fighter is objectively a deadly swordsman in the most literal sense of that phrase and hence is unlikely to present as such in play.

An interesting feature of BW play, which Luke discusses in some detail in the Adventure Burner/Codex commentary, is that play can reveal a Belief to have a non-literal, non-anticipated or even ironic meaning. And that could happen here - my deadliness might turn out to be to myself, or my allies, or to have some other unexpected meaning in play. But I don't think that many D&D players are looking for that sort of experience, and I don't think that's what DEFCON 1 had in mind either.

the character's beliefs are not set by the mechanics, not should they be, nor should the players beliefs about the character be bound by the mechanics. All we can do with the mechanics is get a close as possible to our concept, everything else is down to narrative.
The player of a D&D PC is free to play the PC with the belief I am the greatest magician in the land, but I think there are very few D&D tables at which that belief can be realised if the PC is (in mechanical build) a low level champion fighter with no spell slots or other magical abilities.

D&D has rather concrete mechanical elements of PC building that are connected to concept. This is most obvious in the magic rules, but is also a feature of other aspects of PC build. For instance, kobolds are set out in the MM as having certain attack and damage numbers; and nearly every D&D player knows that kobolds are at the bottom of the combat capability food chain. So a PC whose combat stats are no better than a kobold's is, ipso facto, not really getting very close mechanically to the concept of best swordsman in the land or even deadly swordsman.

Many players (like you apparently) fall into the group that equates game mechanics with ability.

<snip>

I, however, find that way of thinking needlessly restrictive, because it means that any character you start with at like 1st or 3rd level , is by definition a piece of garbage

<snip>

Which, granted, is how WotC kind of defines the Levels 1-4 tier so it does have its place... but personally I think that's a stupid way of looking at it.

<snip>

So I just get around that whole thing by not equating game mechanics to the fiction of the world. You can be a well-known swordsman even at 1st level in the narrative, because narrative doesn't care about mechanics. It is what someone does in the story (before, during and after the campaign) that determines how good they are, and how well-known they are, and how well-respected. If you make a PC and define them in the story as a 10 year veteran in the military, then that PC has the status, knowledge, and skill of a 10 year veteran and gets treated as such, regardless of whatever level they start at for purely game purposes.
When my group started its Prince Valiant campaign, one of the PCs was a 40 year old knight who (as per the player's description) had accomplished little. When the same group started a 4e D&D campaign several years earlier, one of the PCs (played by a different player) was a 40-something year old 1st level wizard.

But the mechanics of Prince Valiant - not to mention the experience of playing that first session - made it clear that the PCs were not (for instance) the equal of Sir Lancelot, and indeed were not very strong knights. And the interaction of 4e mechanics and fiction (our campaign mostly just followed the default for this set out in the various Monster Manuals) made it clear that the 1st level PCs, while more puissant than a typical non-entity NPC, were not as potent as (say) the magician leader of the evil organisation they were opposing.

Your post posits some sort of contrast between fiction of the world and narrative, on the one hand, and game mechanics/game purposes on the other. I don't understand what the contrast is meant to be, because I don't see how the fiction and narrative are independent of the outcomes of action resolution which (typically) are determined by application of the action resolution mechanics. This is what @AbdulAlhazed is getting at when he asks about the self-described best swordsman in the land being easily taken down by a town guard (or typical orc warrior, or whatever).

4e is the version of D&D that went furthest in allowing a player's conception of his/her PC to be realised without worrying about how (say) a typical town guard or typical orc thug might prove it wrong, because of its tendency not to stat up non-entities, its use of minion rules, its clearly articulated tiers of play and the associated fiction, and other well-known though widely despised features. 5e has less of all this, and is more insistent in its design that a certain mechanical element (eg +2 to hit, 15 AC, etc) correlates to something rather concrete in the fiction.

And 5e is also much more concrete than 4e in respect of magic. To me it is rather striking that you set out your thesis by reference to the best swordsman in the land rather than the best wizard in the land or the best planeswalker in the land.
 

Just because the character thinks X doesn't make it so. Fantasy fiction is littered with the corpses of great swordsmen who turned out to be 2nd best.
But this is not what @DEFCON 1 is talking about. He is not talking about a player who plays a PC who falsely believes him-/herself to be a great swordsman. DEFCON 1 is talking about separating the mechanical build of the PC from the status, in the fiction, of the PC as a good or bad swordsman.

As @AbdulAlhazred suggests not far upthread, D&D is a strange veh icle to use for this. He mentions a free descriptor system (Fate) for (I think) exactly the same reason that I did - a free descriptor system provides resources for this sort of thing that are simply absent in D&D.

(There are games that might be even less suited for this than 5e D&D, like Runequest and - I would argue - Burning Wheel - but that doesn't make 5e well suited for it. And as I've just posted, those features of 4e that made it the best D&D vehicle for this sort of thing were precisely the sorts of things that (i) were widely hated, and (ii) that 5e D&D has therefore abandoned.)
 

It just seems quite odd to want to use D&D mechanics for this. I would think some sort of FATE-like system where you can define an attribute like "greatest swordsman in the land" and then leverage it in play. The above narrative could well still result (the diceless system I commonly use for this type of game for example could easily let you be defeated) but it would more likely be a result of the player balancing different character needs, etc. The GM could also dedicate some resources to making it happen, but that would likely mean that you would get a chance to prove your worth all the better later on.
Anyway, it would be a novel way of using D&D, just not one I would normally consider.
Yeh I think D&D is not the tool for the job. Just thought I would demonstrate how a complicite DM could work around the systems limitations to help reinforce the goal. LOL.
 

It just seems quite odd to want to use D&D mechanics for this. I
If NASA can keep using essentially 70s technology to put their astonauts on a 21st century space station, gamers can keep using essentially 70s TTRPGs for involved player-driven storytelling.


After whiffing a few times in a row... ummm I see why people feel it looks stupid and that is a valid emotional response I am not writing it off.

4e reaping strike and 13th age are probably "realistic" ... Or some other games where you spend hp to perform maneuvers
This is one of those visualization things.
I always thought about cinematic "sword fights" when thinking about the D&D round and hps.
Like, Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone cross swords hundreds of times, pressing eachother back and forth, room to room, up staircases, jumping on tables, knocking over suits of armor in the others path, get disarmed and retrieve the weapon or a new one, lock hilts and strain against eachother, and on and on, fast, tense, dramatic...

...and they each draw blood on the other once or maybe twice, shallow cuts till, villain with the upper hand the hero makes one last desperate thrust that ends the duel...
...or poor Basil falls to his death again.

D&D caught flack for not simulating all that sort of things. But, y'know simulating a long duel with dozens if not hundreds of successful parties? Yeah. But tedious.

But visualize it a certain way, and, a few rounds, some hps ablated (be they mechanically hit or also misses), some movement forced, a second wind, and a final blow - could be modeling that dramatic duel, or, at least, the high points of it.
 
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Good evening, long time listener, first time caller, love the show...

First of all,

I can't believe no-one else called you on this nonsense. Of course RPG's are cars!

That said, I agree with the general point of the thesis, that cramming more and more and more stuff until someone explodes isn't better. More stuff isn't better.

But... more choices are better.

I don't want Warforged in my game. I don't want most of the hundred or so different races from the various books in my game, for that matter.
I don't want a couple of the classes, and a lot of the sub-classes, either.
And while we're at it, I don't want a Tarrasque.

But darn it, I want the option of all those things.

D&D 5th would already be unsustainably bloated if everything in every book was mandatory. But there's no harm in choices, only good. I read Artificer and thought "That's what I was trying to do with this alchemist NPC!" I read Xanathar's and thought, "Celestial Warlock? YES!"

I say this as someone who left D&D back in Second Edition, when the bloat got to be too much, and I discovered more rules lite play. I had all the "Complete" books, all the Forgotten Realms supplements, etc, and somewhere in my brain (I was just a kid, okay?) I thought, "I HAVE to use all this stuff, but I don't wanna!" And I started playing other stuff. Mainly Star Wars, but that's another rant.

Looking back, there's obvious design issues in AD&D 2e, but at the time, it was the bloat.

Flash forward to August, 2018. My wife, for her birthday, has required me to attend a D&D game with her. I'd looked at 3e and 4e in the intervening years. Didn't like it, though I did like some of the changes from 2e to 3e. So I was all ready to dislike playing 5th, anticipating a bloated, weighed-down experience. But, She Who Must Be Obeyed had decreed that I would play, so I made a Rogue, because those are my easy mode.

Anyway, I had a blast and we joined the group and over the next year I leveled that character to 20 just in time for the climax of the series. He didn't stay a rogue as I multi-ed into Ranger and later into cleric. (Why? Story Arc.) Anyway, I read the PHB, and other source books, and in the intervening 30ish years I'd learned the skill of picking and choosing, and now I run my own game on Roll20 three times a week. And I love it because I have all these choices.

That's also why when Paizo had those sales on humble bundle, I bought 'em all. Choices.

In conclusion, RPGs are totally cars.
With the BIG difference that back then you could select out of the "bloat" what you wanted and reduce and restrict etc. and no one would complain, in fact it was considered good campaign design (like it still is imo)!
You can find all sorts of weakness in 2e but the "bloat" was none, because it did not afflict the expectations in the game and RAW etc. like it did starting with 3rd and its splatbooks.
All the 2e supplements where optional, none was mandatory. Today for some folks everything seems mandatory, guys start to decide and chose and think for yourselves, we are not in the plane of law but in the real world!
 

I have to disagree with the original premise of this thread. I think making a wide variety of official choices available to players is a good thing. We all have very different ideas of fantasy roleplaying, and D&D has now had forty years to accumulate a vast treasury of ideas. The dungeon master could offer a more limited palette or a pregenerated character to a new player.
 

I guess I fail to grasp your point... If I call my level 1 PC 'greatest swordsman in the land' then what happens when I get my ass kicked by a random town guard? That's the type of result D&D mechanics will produce! Seems like what you want is not D&D...
Really? When does the game tell us the PC fights against a random town guard? I didn't realize that was a requirement of the rules.

And therein lies my point. The fiction of the story is about what actually happens... not what COULD happen. Could a 1st level PC be defeated by a town guardsman? Mechanically, sure. But if that 1st level PC never fights one (because there's no reason in the story for that fight to happen), then it doesn't matter. I care about what actually happens in the narrative, not what the mechanics tell us COULD happen. Because when you only care about "could", you have no choice be to look at the totality of the mechanics and make determinations completely devoid of story. The Best Swordsman In The Land HAS to be a level 20 Battlemaster or Oath of Vengeance Paladin (or whatever white-room sim you've come up with), because every other character is less than that.

It's the same reason why I find it silly when people complain that a Rogue is a "better" arcanist than a Wizard, because the Rogue could take Expertise in the Arcana skill (and thus the Wizard will never have the potentially best score in it.) But the problem with that is... no games ever actually HAVE Rogues that have taken Expertise in Arcana to keep "showing up" all the wizards in the campaign. It doesn't happen. That story never actually plays out. So it doesn't matter in the slightest that mechanically-speaking the Rogue as a class COULD be the most Arcana-based character in the game. If they don't appear, then they don't exist.

Now... that's not to say a player couldn't actually do that-- have their Rogue character take an 18 INT and take Expertise in Arcana, eventually bumping their INT to 20 and so on and so forth. But if that player chooses to do that, I'm fairly certain that player will be roleplaying to the hilt that their "non-wizard" somehow knows more about wizardry than any other character in the story. And the DM will hopefully run with that story potential as well, giving ample opportunities to show it off. If that player is going all-in, then we would hope the character and their story is going to be all about it. At which point, then yeah, it's perfectly acceptable that the Rogue be the best Arcana skill-based class in the game, because the story is going to exemplify it.

But guess what? This whole scenario can also play out with a Rogue who doesn't have Expertise in Arcana and only has a 16 in INT. Why? Because the player plays the character exactly the same way... and the DM presents challenges that allows the Rogue player to potentially still exemplify it. The Rogue PC out-Arcanas the wizards in this campaign story, and continually shows off his ability, even without having the best possible mechanics to do it. And why? Well, maybe the times when the Rogue PC shows off their knowledge of Arcana the player keeps rollings 17, 18, or 20s and the wizards NPCs roll 4s, 7s, and 8s. And the Rogue keeps winning these "contests" in arcana lore even without being the best mechanical representation. Even against wizards that might 2, 3, 5 levels "higher" than the PC. In the story those "levels" do not matter, the actual Arcana skill number doesn't matter...

...all that matters is that in-story, this Rogue has exemplified their superiority. And at that point... the DM does the proper improvisational "Yes, And..." and goes along with the idea that in this story in this campaign, this random Rogue PC apparently is the most knowledgeable magical-lore person in the land. And the story will be geared towards enhancing and challenging that assertion in interesting and campaign setting ways... not just having the Rogue face random town guards that they could mechanically fail to defeat. Because what would be the point of that? That's the complete absence of drama, and to me, a complete waste of time.
 
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....
The Best Swordsman In The Land HAS to be a level 20 Battlemaster or Oath of Vengeance Paladin (or whatever white-room sim you've come up with), because every other character is less than that.
....
To add to your post: A Vengeance paladin cannot be the best swordsman, this title if anyone approaches it has to go to some fighter, since it is about fencing not about casting.
 

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