D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3E Design: The Unbalanced Cleric

What do you call a D&D cleric who can’t heal? A 1st-level 1970s cleric. The original first-level cleric could turn undead but had no spells. Skip Williams says that the original conception of the cleric was sort of a Van Helsing figure, someone who bought the wolvesbane, belladonna, and garlic on the equipment list and who contended with the undead. The original cleric couldn’t cast cure light...
What do you call a D&D cleric who can’t heal? A 1st-level 1970s cleric. The original first-level cleric could turn undead but had no spells. Skip Williams says that the original conception of the cleric was sort of a Van Helsing figure, someone who bought the wolvesbane, belladonna, and garlic on the equipment list and who contended with the undead. The original cleric couldn’t cast cure light wounds or other spells until 2nd level, but they could turn undead at 1st. In terms of combat and spellcasting, clerics were intermediate between the other two classes: fighting-men and magic-users.

Aleena-by-Larry-Elmore_grande.jpg

Aleena the Cleric by Larry Elmore

With AD&D, the cleric’s role as a healer was established from 1st-level on, and they even got bonus spells for high Wisdom scores. They went from having fewer spells than magic-users did to having more. In 2nd Edition, the rules talked about clerics without healing powers, but that sort of cleric was not popular. Someone had to play the cleric, and that meant a cleric who healed party members. The poor cleric had to memorize healing spells, limiting their access to all the other cool spells that clerics have. Some spell levels lacked good healing spells, which was reportedly intentional. Since healing spells pushed out most other spell types, giving clerics no good 2nd-level healing spells meant that they were free to pray for spells that were more fun to cast. For 3rd Ed, we addressed that problem with spontaneous casting, letting clerics swap out any prepared spell for a healing spell of the same level.

One thing we decidedly did not fix in 3E was that somebody had to play the cleric, or something close. In the RPGA’s Living Greyhawk campaign, my barbarian picked up a level of cleric at 2nd level just so I would never again play in a party with no cleric. Then for the next two levels I continued with cleric because I was not a fool. The 3E cleric ended up so unbalanced that at Wizards I gave a presentation to RPG R&D on why it’s more or less impossible to balance the class. To understand why the cleric is hard to balance, it helps to think of the cleric’s opposite, a “berserk” class.

With a “berserk” class, the barbarian-type character deals an oversized amount of damage, which is balanced by damage that the character sometimes deals to allies. The “berserk” is cool to play because it deals lots of damage, and it’s the other players who really pay the cost that balances this benefit. Variants on this idea have appeared a couple times, but I consider this sort of class virtually impossible to balance. For its distinctive feature to be powerful enough to appeal to the player’s sense of power, the damage to allies has to be high enough to annoy the other players. If the “berserk” is fun to play, it’s at the cost of other players’ fun.

The cleric is the opposite of the “berserk.” The cleric’s combat ability is penalized in order to balance its healing capacity. This healing power, however, benefits the rest of the party more than it benefits the cleric itself. Unlike the player who likes playing berserks, the cleric player gives up some of their power in order to benefit the party as a whole. The cleric’s trade-off is something like, “Well, you’re not as combat-worthy as a fighter or wizard, but that drawback is balanced by all the healing you provide to other player characters.” How do you get players to play an altruistic character class like a cleric? How, as game designers, could we make clerics interesting to play when so much of their power benefited other characters instead of making the clerics themselves cool? We never framed the question that clearly to ourselves. Instead, we intuited a balance that seemed right. The answer to the trade-off was to make the cleric pay a small cost in terms of reduced combat abilities for a large benefit in terms of healing. Players would play them because they’re almost as cool as other classes in their own right (small cost), and they offer a significant amount of healing, which makes them valuable (big benefit). What do you get when you give a class a significant benefit and balance it with an marginal penalty? You get a class that’s overpowered.

On the plus side, I’m pretty happy with how the clerics turned out in terms of flavor. The 2E clerics were sort of generic. Since the 2E Player’s Handbook was world-agnostic, the rules for clerics were based on their Spheres of Influence rather than the identities of particular deities. In my personal AD&D experience, I liked playing clerics because one’s connection to a deity and religion gave me plenty of material for how I would roleplay a character. In 3E, the gods of Greyhawk gave default 3E clerics more world flavor than default 2E cleric had. Short descriptions in the Player’s Handbook were all players needed to hang their imaginations on these gods.

The puzzle of the altruistic character class intrigued me, and I came at the concept with two new classes for 13th Age. The occultist is a spellcaster who breaks the laws of space and time to protect allies and to make their attacks more effective. Most of the occultist’s spells are interrupts that get cast on other characters’ turns. For 13th Age Glorantha, I designed the trickster class. Their default attack deals literally no damage, but it sets up allies to hit the target for additional damage. Tricksters also have various ways of drawing bad luck on themselves to benefit other characters. The trickster class is so altruistic and masochistic that it has, I think, only niche appeal. It might be a class that’s more fun to watch being played than to play.

Another issue with the cleric is that it’s impossible to balance classes with mostly per-day abilities (that is, spellcasters) against classes whose abilities are at-will, such as the fighter or rogue. That issue, however, is a topic for another day.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Superchunk77

Adventurer
Now, let's be fair. Backgrounds have features, and these are definitely "whats." The fact that most D&D games devolve into versions of fight-loot-shop-repeat doesn't negate this. Some of these features can be extraordinary in the right circumstances (see: Charlatan feature, second ability).

Agree to disagree. Background features don't have mechanics, and I'm pretty sure the PHB or another book tells us not to give them any if they make up their own. So to me they're still more how than what. The charlatan has a second identity that lets them forge documents or disguise themselves, and in 5e that's just assumed to be up to the DM to adjudicate. Back in 3.5 you had a couple skills to handle that kind of stuff, and the DM would give you the DC. Both achieve the same effect but 5e is entirely DM dependent, whereas in 3.5 it was mechanically explained or quantified. Pathfinder went a step further to introduce background traits which I actually really liked.

Also, skill selection isn't a small thing. The ability to mix interesting skill combinations (again something a lot of D&D games sidetrack) can be huge if the game you're running puts skills to the front.

I absolutely despise the way 5e handles skills. You pick them all at 1st level then nothing? Disappointing. Fully proficient skilled characters enjoying a maximum 30% edge over an untrained peasant? Underwhelming. The fact that any character can attempt any skill check, regardless of proficiency? That encourages skill dog-piling and I hate seeing it in my games because it devalues skill proficiency and makes characters taking the skill feel inferior all because of a lucky roll.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tony Vargas

Legend
Personally I enjoyed the 4E Warpriest (Essentials) best out of any edition as well as some variants from other games like DCC RPG. Both address the issues of being the healer while also allowing the player to have the full amount of wahoo fun with their powers/spells.
All the 4e 'leader' classes were pretty cool that way. It was a combination of putting the limiting resource for healing (Surges) primarily on the character being healed, and of making healing and other leader (Support) duties compatible with taking other meaningful actions.

As another variation/alternate- I'd be fine with the class being removed as a PC from the game-The Cleric as written has never really fit the fiction the game was based on (Classic S&S literature).
One thing each WotC ed has tried to do is have alt.Clerics - Healers (Leaders/Support/whatever), that didn't carry the Clerics' religious baggage. 3e had cheap healing items & UMD, so just as your Cleric could fake being a Rogue, your Rogue could fake being a cleric; 4e had a 'Leader' class for every Source, so you could play a Warlord, Artificer, Bard, Ardent, or Druid(Sentinel) if you didn't mind "being the healer" but didn't care for the Cleric concept. 5e, less broadly, offers Bard & Druid as alt.Clerics, with Paladin, BM/PDK, & Artificer second-string.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Background features don't have mechanics

They may not be mechanical, but they have an impact on the game just like any other game rule. The Urchin's ability to travel streets twice as fast as others could have a huge impact in a game. Outlander's ability to recall maps and gather extra food is impactful on games. There are many like that.

The fact that any character can attempt any skill check, regardless of proficiency? That encourages skill dog-piling and I hate seeing it in my games because it devalues skill proficiency and makes characters taking the skill feel inferior all because of a lucky roll.

Skill dog-piling sucks, agreed, but the DM is the artiber of whether a character can attempt a check or not, or if one even needs to be made. There are allowances for a DM to say "you would have no way to know that."

Check out Matt Colleville's recent video on just that topic. It's a pretty quick watch.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The puzzle of the altruistic character class intrigued me, and I came at the concept with two new classes for 13th Age. The occultist is a spellcaster who breaks the laws of space and time to protect allies and to make their attacks more effective. Most of the occultist’s spells are interrupts that get cast on other characters’ turns.
I had not thought of the occultist that way, I'll have to give it a second look.

For 13th Age Glorantha, I designed the trickster class. Their default attack deals literally no damage, but it sets up allies to hit the target for additional damage. Tricksters also have various ways of drawing bad luck on themselves to benefit other characters.
Sounds amazing...
The trickster class is so altruistic and masochistic that it has, I think, only niche appeal.
.er… I … um....
It might be a class that’s more fun to watch being played than to play.
I have got to find a copy of 13A Glorantha (or is it just pdf?). I remember vaguely hearing it was coming - wow, the best D&D-adjacent system combined with the most intriguingly mythic setting ever? - but then, nothing....
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
They may not be mechanical, but they have an impact on the game just like any other game rule. The Urchin's ability to travel streets twice as fast as others could have a huge impact in a game. Outlander's ability to recall maps and gather extra food is impactful on games. There are many like that.

I try to lean into character background choices whenever possible. In my first 5e campaign the party wizard had the Sage background and I translated that (in game crunch terms) to giving him advantage on any roll made to see "Do I know anything about this". Similarly the Sailor got advantage on almost any skill roll made to keep the ship sailing while they were shipboard. Just granting advantage to common things a person with that background would be good at can go a long way to giving them a leg up when appropriate.

My group also (mostly) self enforces a "My character wouldn't know that" policy of not trying a skill the character is out of their depth on. Usually trained=rolling unless its something common to all adventurers (like Perception to find hidden foes or Athletics to climb a cliff).
 

JeffB

Legend
I had not thought of the occultist that way, I'll have to give it a second look.

Sounds amazing....er… I … um....I have got to find a copy of 13A Glorantha (or is it just pdf?). I remember vaguely hearing it was coming - wow, the best D&D-adjacent system combined with the most intriguingly mythic setting ever? - but then, nothing....

Its been out for some time- Print & PDF. a year or so, IIRC.

It's amazing. As an old time RQ'er, from circa 1980 I think it does a better job at RQ/Glorantha than most editions of RQ and all the Hero Wars/HQ variations. It just nails it the right "feel" for me- It's less gritty than RQ, and sufficiently wahoo* and cinematic, but has a more traditional structure/playstyle than HW/HQ. .Jon & Rob totally hit It out of the park. It's also massive. 460+ pages.

I think- not totally sure..but I thought there was a free demo adventure with pre-gens out there. I cannot recall if it was a Chaosium thing or Pelgrane. Might seek it out for a sample.

Found it- The Next Valley Over (direct link to PDF from pelgrane website)



* yeah, ducks ;)
 
Last edited:

Henry

Autoexreginated
I also have to disagree with 2nd edition clerics being very generic compared to 3rd edition clerics. It is true, if looking at solely the PHB; however, with the 2nd edition Legends And Lore book, it completely transforms the cleric of each god into a class unto itself. That book, which not only assigned spheres to each god, but armor and weapons allowed, as well as added spells, made each god‘s cleric very different.

I was quite disappointed in the changes in 3e clerics where every cleric had the same armor and weapon proficiencies, with their only difference being a short list of two spells each level, and what was worse, there were obvious “best“ domains due to the system mastery inherent in its design (war, travel, and freedom, I’m lookin’ at you!) so every cleric was a chain shirt or breastplate-wearing offensive spell badass who could nova in very specific strategies. 2e‘s cleric sphere system along with armor, weapon and extra spell choice inspired me to make an entirely different pantheon for my home campaign world, which was loved by my players; with 3e, it just did not inspire me at all, as my cleric of healing and life looked almost identical to my cleric of war under 3e.

As an avid fan and regular player of clerics from AD&D 1st edition onward through today, I have found clerics in 3rd, 4th, and 5th editions a step back from the high-water mark of 2nd edition’s highly customizable clerics. i would love to see a new Cleric class in 5e similar to the 2e “sphere” cleric, but with better guidelines about balancing the weapon, armor, sphere, and extra spell choice to balance between versions that are more ranged or spell-using vs. more front-line types.
 

Ace

Adventurer
My opinion is that once the cleric becamea class , D&D moved to a "play your personality type" rather than a purer wargame model."

Back efore a skill system , heck before the thief class , the players were supposed to solve problems other than combat with their own brains. Disarm that trap? Tell me how you are going to do it.

It was kind of like the story games we see now but with what was supposed to be an impersonal and fair ref. It didn't always work out that way and was unsuitable to D&D as mass market game but it is a very interesting model.

There were a few hacks for magic users of course but this is radically different than how we play today and I think that design philosophy carried over into assumed player class selection.

I think the game assumed you'd play what suited your personality the best , Combat (Fighter) Artillery/Smart Guy (MU) the Cleric of course was as noted above an afterthought but it did suit Helpful and Neither Fish Nor Fowl niches pretty well

Again opinion, the Thief was a graft on for people who wanted a mechanic for stuff they'd otherwise basically have to negotiate with the DM and of course Grey Mouser fans . I think it was a terrible fit myself and the percentage system was awful. YMMV of course.

Now as to my own gaming,. I sometimes play Clerics if asked or am in the mood though the whole "I'm clergy" thing was off putting to me save with made up deities. Playing at being a say Godi of the Norse Gods when people still follow them is uncomfortable to me. In my own old school games I generally assume they use "order magic" vs chaos magic which suits me a bit better and fits the Lawful, Neutral , Chaotic, Axis again YMMV
 

DWChancellor

Kobold Enthusiast
Agree to disagree. Background features don't have mechanics, and I'm pretty sure the PHB or another book tells us not to give them any if they make up their own. So to me they're still more how than what. The charlatan has a second identity that lets them forge documents or disguise themselves, and in 5e that's just assumed to be up to the DM to adjudicate. Back in 3.5 you had a couple skills to handle that kind of stuff, and the DM would give you the DC. Both achieve the same effect but 5e is entirely DM dependent, whereas in 3.5 it was mechanically explained or quantified. Pathfinder went a step further to introduce background traits which I actually really liked.

Fair. I think being handed features that simply work, rather than rolling the 3E skill to forge documents (for example) is definitely a mechanic. But you're right in that it is bolted onto the rest of the game and comes into play through DM'ing. Mostly it sounds like you don't enjoy how 5E flows through your game.

I absolutely despise the way 5e handles skills. You pick them all at 1st level then nothing? Disappointing. Fully proficient skilled characters enjoying a maximum 30% edge over an untrained peasant? Underwhelming. The fact that any character can attempt any skill check, regardless of proficiency? That encourages skill dog-piling and I hate seeing it in my games because it devalues skill proficiency and makes characters taking the skill feel inferior all because of a lucky roll.

Honestly, I feel D&D has always had a skill problem. I'm not much happier with 5E than any other editions (1-5E; Pathfinder 1). I do prefer that 5E does away with the pile of random skills that barely see use. I've also noticed that the 5E designers do not run skills like I've seen a lot of other DMs do it. Watching Crawford on Acq. Inc. was eye opening. The mixture of stat to skill, the DCs...

I think a lot of what people object to between editions, and most of the objection to 5E, has to do with how it meshes with burned in DM habits. Nothing wrong with that! We're just used to what we're used to and can gloss over what is actually there. Or just not be on the same frequency.
 


Remove ads

Remove ads

Top