Why Do You Hate An RPG System?

[hawkeyefan]

I'm growing increasingly weary of hit points. I do think they are an easy and functional way to track character damage for game purposes, and they mesh nicely with the other elements of the game as needed (spells, class abilities, and the like)...but I feel like they don't carry any kind of meaning to them other than the binary "you're still on your feet/you're down" state. You can add some other mechanic to them, such as wounds or vitality or what have you, and that may help, but that's not always easy to blend into the related mechanics.

I also find that ultimately, what HP do is simply allow combat to continue.....so most fights last longer than what might actually be dramatically and/or mechanically exciting. Hit points add to the slog aspect of combat.

The question is, what other systems may work better? I can think of two game systems for tracking PC harm that are superior (in my opinion, of course) to HP, and that's Blades in the Dark and Apocalypse World. Both work well in their systems. The Blades system is particularly good, in my opinion.

Are there any other systems for this that folks would recommend?

 

[Undrave]

I'm growing increasingly weary of hit points. I do think they are an easy and functional way to track character damage for game purposes, and they mesh nicely with the other elements of the game as needed (spells, class abilities, and the like)...but I feel like they don't carry any kind of meaning to them other than the binary "you're still on your feet/you're down" state. You can add some other mechanic to them, such as wounds or vitality or what have you, and that may help, but that's not always easy to blend into the related mechanics.

I also find that ultimately, what HP do is simply allow combat to continue.....so most fights last longer than what might actually be dramatically and/or mechanically exciting. Hit points add to the slog aspect of combat.

The question is, what other systems may work better? I can think of two game systems for tracking PC harm that are superior (in my opinion, of course) to HP, and that's Blades in the Dark and Apocalypse World. Both work well in their systems. The Blades system is particularly good, in my opinion.

Are there any other systems for this that folks would recommend?

I recall that Star Wars SAGA had a different system where damage would hinder you after a point... the problem is you get into 'spiral of death' situation where injured PCs become easier and easier to harm...

Then Mutant & Mastermind doesn't have HP (at least in the version I played)...but you get tired of 'Bruised, injured, stunned' every other round...

And in Cartoon Action Hour no one ever dies, characters gather 'Setback tokens' up to their 'Star Power' and if you get more you are automatically 'Defeated' until the end of the Scene. A very bad roll against a very good roll can see you auto-defeated as well. You pick what 'Defeated' means. Its possible to have lingering setback tokens though... but they don't do anything on their own.

 

[billd91]

I recall that Star Wars SAGA had a different system where damage would hinder you after a point... the problem is you get into 'spiral of death' situation where injured PCs become easier and easier to harm...

It's not total damage than hinders, it's major, significant instances of taking damage that send you shuffling down the Condition track or attacks from stun settings and certain Force powers. You can be whittled down from full hit points to 0 without slipping down the Condition track at all. The damage just has to come in smaller chunks than a big blow that exceeds your damage threshold.

 

[hawkeyefan]

It's not total damage than hinders, it's major, significant instances of taking damage that send you shuffling down the Condition track or attacks from stun settings and certain Force powers. You can be whittled down from full hit points to 0 without slipping down the Condition track at all. The damage just has to come in smaller chunks than a big blow that exceeds your damage threshold.

I played that version of Star Wars a few times, and I remember that I liked how it added more to character damage....that it helped give the sense that there is danger and at any point something bad can happen, something worse than "you lose 22 of your 134 hit points!"

But if I recall, it felt like there was a lot to track? I don't recall how damage threshold was calculated....was it just your CON score, or something else? Did it scale with level?

 

[billd91]

But if I recall, it felt like there was a lot to track? I don't recall how damage threshold was calculated....was it just your CON score, or something else? Did it scale with level?

It was based on your Fortitude defense so Con contributed to it as did any levels you had in a heroic class (which was pretty much all of the classes for PCs). Armor could add to it as could feats/talents/racial abilities.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

But if I recall, it felt like there was a lot to track? I don't recall how damage threshold was calculated....was it just your CON score, or something else? Did it scale with level?

Damage Threshold was the same as your Fortitude Defense (equivalent to a passive Fort Save, basically) plus a few modifiers.

The Damage Threshold and Condition Track from Star Wars Saga edition has a few flaws, but definitely was an interesting addition to straight hit point attrition.

 

[dragoner]

Here is an interesting damage system: Hitting Them Where It Hurts

 

[Retreater]

Here are some things I dislike about certain systems:
1) Charts. You can't memorize them. There is no sensible formula. You have to constantly refer to the book to see the effect of your die roll.
2) Ineffective characters. Your characters are only slightly better than an average person. You have like a 10%-20% chance to succeed. Otherwise, your turn is wasted. And your character will die in one hit.
3) Multiple resolution mechanics. Sometimes you roll over. Sometimes you run under. Sometimes you roll a d20. Sometimes you have to stack 5 playing cards.
Funny how all of these apply to OSR games.

 

[Undrave]

It's not total damage than hinders, it's major, significant instances of taking damage that send you shuffling down the Condition track or attacks from stun settings and certain Force powers. You can be whittled down from full hit points to 0 without slipping down the Condition track at all. The damage just has to come in smaller chunks than a big blow that exceeds your damage threshold.

Oh right. I haven't checked the SAGA books in a while. I recall you could be knocked out by Condition Track and not just HP depletion.

Damage Threshold was the same as your Fortitude Defense (equivalent to a passive Fort Save, basically) plus a few modifiers.

The Damage Threshold and Condition Track from Star Wars Saga edition has a few flaws, but definitely was an interesting addition to straight hit point attrition.

Seems like it would have been cool to see it perfected in a future system.

 

[Greg K]

Then Mutant & Mastermind doesn't have HP (at least in the version I played)...but you get tired of 'Bruised, injured, stunned' every other round...

Undrave, I am unclear by what you wrote. Are you saying that players get tired of it? If so, my own experience was different . My regular players didn't get tired of it after several years of playing. Furthermore, the other half-dozen visiting gamer friends that sat in for sessions really enjoyed the damage save system for M&M (which has been the system for all editions. However I have not run it since just prior to the 3e so I don't recall if there were tweaks to the base save numbers over the editions).