Dungeon World

[Retreater]

I have run many campaigns all the way to level 10. I had the same kind of issues you are having at first because I was treating Dungeon World like it was D&D. You're players have not managed to break the game. The danger is only as real as the fiction, its not really about numbers. You say that you have been playing in line with the advice you have been given but also say that you rely primarily on dealing damage for partial successes.. both of these statements cannot be true. Are you truly here to seek advice for your game or are you just venting? If you are here for advice then re-read this thread, its a goldmine and your next DW game will run a lot better. Also fix the cleric issue by making "draw unwanted attention" something bad. It sounds like your cleric is casting and any time they don't roll a 10+ choosing that outcome so that they can continue using their healing spell. If they always choose the same negative consequence then you didn't make it negative enough.

I will read and try to make the game better with the advice.
Regarding my cleric, he hasn't chosen Unwanted Attention as a consequence for 5 months of play. On the rare occasion he rolls a complication (because you don't roll for rotes?) he simply chooses to lose the spell temporarily until the next scene, by which time it's been recovered.

 

[SoftDutch]

I will read and try to make the game better with the advice.
Regarding my cleric, he hasn't chosen Unwanted Attention as a consequence for 5 months of play. On the rare occasion he rolls a complication (because you don't roll for rotes?) he simply chooses to lose the spell temporarily until the next scene, by which time it's been recovered.

The cleric should be rolling to cast a rote, the rotes don't count against the total number of spells they are granted when they Commune, but they are still spells. When they lose the spell it should be until they have time to Commune again, which should not be until they have a prolonged safe time. Even if they have a +3 modifier they should be getting partial successes or worse 41.7% of the time. Just having 2 back to back fights could easily deplete a healer of spells if they keep choosing the revoke consequence.

 

[JeffB]

LONG POST- read at your own Peril

When DW clicks- I've never had more fun playing a RPG- For old timers, it's a re-programming of the brain. New/Casual players hook on to DW immediately, but it's tough for established folk.

You really have to stop thinking in the context of most RPGS- there are no limitations on what you are doing like in D&D or any traditional RPG. It's not a simulation of combat- there's no wargamey aspects. It is not modern D&D in rules-lite format This is a narrative/story telling roleplaying game inspired by the fictional world elements of OSR/TSR D&D. Rule-wise it's ANTI D&D.

There are no actions per round- so don't think in those terms and you are not restricted/limited by those games that utilize such a thing: That's a big one to unlearn. Because we tend to as DM's come back with deal damage

The Hell Hound moves up to you and bites you for 1d6 points of piercing damage and 1d3 points of fire damage.

DW- It bites your arm, clamping down with the massive strength of it's jaws- you take 5 points of damage (no armor to help) the saliva dripping from it's mouth searing your skin-- The Hound exhales and your sleeve ignites and fire spreads up your arm. it's clamped onto you shaking it's head violently and flames are starting to lick at your face- What do you do?

Certainly you can, and there are DM's who do, go all in with the fictional elements in D&D combat, but it's inevitable that you will break immersion by seeing if such fiction is possible in terms of the game rules- Did the hellhound take too many actions? Can it move, bite, grab, exhale, and ignite stuff on it's turn? Is the exhale a bonus action? Does your Fighter get a reaction against that? Can he make a save? Is my stuff flammable? I don't play D&D like that, but a helluva lot of people do play D&D just like that. In DW you ignore it, and don't even think in those terms.

Hack & Slash is not just one exchange of blows
Movement is not limited in D&D terms.. There are no "move" moves.

If you have to think in terms of D&D

When dealing with rounds- think of the entire move as a entire round in T/OSR D&D- one minute, not 6 seconds like today. Think of all the things that could be done in one minute. The movement/dodging, the number of blows and blocks, the interaction with terrain, etc.

For results of rolls in combat- think in terms of "conditions" instead of just (or in addition to-depending on the roll) damage...They are

grabbed/grappled
stunned
weakened
dazed
poisoned
persistent fire/cold/acid
paralyzed
prone..blah blah blah


The 4E monster manuals are a fantastic resource for DW combat- just get the gist of a monsters powers, and write them down in a few sentences/keywords. Oh boy- Marilith definitely gets the Messy tag. I actually used that Messy Tag as the fiction to hint what was coming up for the players- Evil NPC group they were racing to the lost city to stop a sacrifice- when the PC's arrived after the NPC group and found them in the overgrown with vegetation white marble streets on the shore of an underground sea....6 swords and lots of bodies/parts messy. Freaked them out. They got messy too

Go back and re-watch the Indiana Jones movies- all of them are fantastic fodder for a DW DM. Especially the fight scenes, Or the extended cut of the Moria fight in FotR.

As said before -if you work against the system by having so much created beforehand like detailed maps, and plot, the system rebels. Let them waylay your plans. How many times in D&D do players do the exact thing you wish they wouldn't have and ignore what you thought what they would do? DW eliminates this by encouraging them to do that, and encouraging the DM to roll with it (npi). The more you try to run a typical scenario with typical steps and progression and fights and conclusion, the more DW does not work as intended.

My fave scenario was running a loose version of Tom Moldvay's B3 edit- I went through B3 and just picked out what I felt what were the most classic bits of the module. I didn't even use the maps- I just wrote down things like "Animated sword fight" " Decapus", "Arik's Acolytes" "Travis the mad" "Gardens" "Rowena the Bard" "Duchess and Candella" , "The Protectors" "Red Glow" and note things in the room, terrain, smells, sounds, etc. just a sentence or two to get the fiction started.

I had the characters prisoners of Arik's Acolytes because they had been searching for the fabled massive ruby (the Eye of Arik) and got caught. They escaped, then hit some of the "classic" encounters/areas including be-friending the two female thieves. Due to their actions and me prompting them to answer questions- we ended up in the Gardens for along time- they thought they had escaped, but by the imrpov nature of the game I ended up going with this Garden as massive Illusion as they tried to escape the Werewolf and other minions of Arik over a few days (The PCs thought they were in the woods heading back to town). It TOTALLY WENT OFF THE RAILS from the actual adventure. And it was incredibly fun. And eventually they figured things out with The Protectors giving guidance , found their way out and took on Catharandamus and found The EYE and figured out how to destroy it. I didn't just feel like I was orchestrating the game for them, I felt like a player as well. This is what I love about DW. Going in with little prep, a lot of improv and letting the players have some narrative control is so much fun and exactly how the game is supposed to work. Its much tougher, but worth it when all cylinders are firing.

I also ran The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh in a similar vein- even though it by nature of playing to find out what happens pretty much went right along with the module as written, that was also the most fun I ever had running that module because some of the encounters and areas that are often glossed over/hurried through playing it in D&D became the centerpieces of the sessions.

Personally, I would have a heart to heart with your players and tell them - look, the concept is new to me I've done some research, I haven't been doing things exactly the way I am supposed to- how should I approach the rest of the game? Let them know that anything in the future will likely be much more dangerous and challenging and then see what they say.

 

[Arilyn]

You have gotten lots of good advice and examples here. I'll only add that when I played DW, I was on edge almost the entire time. Everything felt very immediate and heightened. The GM was working off a very loose skeleton, as good DW games should be run, but the immersion was deep.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Personally, I would have a heart to heart with your players and tell them - look, the concept is new to me I've done some research, I haven't been doing things exactly the way I am supposed to- how should I approach the rest of the game? Let them know that anything in the future will likely be much more dangerous and challenging and then see what they say.

This. Or at least check in with them and see if they are bored. Maybe succeeding at everything is super fun for them! As long as it's fun for you too...

 

[Celebrim]

The Hell Hound moves up to you and bites you for 1d6 points of piercing damage and 1d3 points of fire damage.

DW- It bites your arm, clamping down with the massive strength of it's jaws- you take 5 points of damage (no armor to help) the saliva dripping from it's mouth searing your skin-- The Hound exhales and your sleeve ignites and fire spreads up your arm. it's clamped onto you shaking it's head violently and flames are starting to lick at your face

I don't understand the difference.

In particular, coming from a background in 1e and BECMI where we had 30 second combat rounds, I am baffled by the claim that the difference between the two is DW is more abstract than D&D.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I don't understand the difference.

In particular, coming from a background in 1e and BECMI where we had 30 second combat rounds, I am baffled by the claim that the difference between the two is DW is more abstract than D&D.

Well, in the first, you took damage.

In the second, you took damage, have a hell hound clamped onto your arm, and are currently on fire. Those last two are subtle, granted, but still important differences in outcome.

 

[Celebrim]

Well, in the first, you took damage.

In the second, you took damage, have a hell hound clamped onto your arm, and are currently on fire. Those last two are subtle, granted, but still important differences in outcome.

Maybe... I don't think we can establish that just from the information we are given.

The second description could easily be the description of a 1e or BECMI character attacked by a hellhound and taking 1d6 damage plus 1d3 fire damage. In fact, that sort of narrated fictional positioning is pretty typical for me in a D&D game and has been for decades. I'm translating the abstract mechanic into some sort of dramatic narration. I don't always do that, as too much of that can get tedious, but I do that a lot.

What's not established is whether and how this fictional position has any meaning at all on the game.

a) Does being on fire force equipment savings throws (as it would in 1e AD&D) or not (as it wouldn't have in 3e D&D)? Is there a chance in DW that the character's magic cloak burns up, and if so, then how is that fortune adjudicated?
b) Does the described bite imply the character now has the Grappled condition (as it would have in 3e D&D) or is it mostly just color (as it would have most likely been at most 1e AD&D tables)? Under what circumstances other than fiat or whim is that grappled condition imposed and how is it escaped?
c) Does being on fire suggest any more damage from the Hell Hound's next attack than would be implied by 1d6 bite damage + 1d3 fire damage? Or will the GM simply narrate the same damage again using more color to suggest the increasing severity of the attack?

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I will read and try to make the game better with the advice.
Regarding my cleric, he hasn't chosen Unwanted Attention as a consequence for 5 months of play. On the rare occasion he rolls a complication (because you don't roll for rotes?) he simply chooses to lose the spell temporarily until the next scene, by which time it's been recovered.

..."Well thar's yer problem...!"

Here is the first paragraph, on page 13 of the DW book, under the heading "What's Dungeon World Like To Play?"

"
Playing Dungeon World is all about finding out what happens when
your characters encounter dangerous and exciting monsters, strange
ruins, and unusual people on their quest for gold and glory. It’s a
conversation between the players and the GM—the GM tells the
players what they see and hear in the world around them and the
players say what their characters are thinking, feeling, and doing.
Sometimes those descriptions will trigger a move—something that’ll
cause everyone to stop and say “time to roll the dice to see what
happens.” For a moment everyone hangs on the edges of their seats
as the dice clatter to a stop. Tension and excitement are always the
result, no matter how the dice land

"
See that bold text there? Yeah. That's the hang up you are having. I did the same thing I 'didnt get' when I ran my first two or three sessions of DW.

Read the examples of play you can find all through the book or even online. In them, the Player describes what they want to have their PC do. The DM then describes what effect that has. Sometimes, if there looks to be an opportunity for "What if...?", the DM indicates "That sounds like a [whatever] Move...", and the Player THEN rolls. The DM then looks at the results and weaves it into the story at hand.

Now, this isn't to say that playing DW is "all the DM's choices". The Player is given specific abilities for their PC's and they often allow the Player to make the decision (e.g. "loose a spell"). This is the "sticky wicket" that I sort of got hung up on for a bit. I am a looooooooooong time DM (started my DM'ing career back in 1980), and was of the "neutral DM mindset". Still am, actually. So trying to re-jigger my old dog brain into a more...hmmm...'actively involved' role that DW requires didn't come naturally to me. Let me explain...

Lets say a PC to an 8' chasm while deep down in the Veins of the Earth(1). The PC knows that bad things will soon catch up to him, so he needs to get across it.

Player: "8' huh? That's not too far, I can jump that. I back up a bit, then take a running leap to the other side!"
DM: "You back up about 15' and start running forward. You are at the edge, you see the other side, your target landing area...roll a Defy Danger using Dex"
Player: "Awesome! [rolls dice and gets a total of 9] Only 9! Really?!"
DM: "You leap into the air and feel your backpack shift a bit, as well as the coil of rope in your left hand snag a bit on your daggers at your side. The slightly slippery cavern floor doesn't help either...bat quanno...probably. You know you are going to come up a bit short... Any ideas on how to stop yourself from falling into the opening?"
Player: "Uh...uh...can I see any stalagmites nearby that I can grab onto? Or anything like that?"
DM: "The stalagmites are a few feet away from the lip...but there does seem to be some crack, protrusions, maybe even a very VERY small ledge down a bit on the side you are going to hit."
Player: "I'll try and use the coiled rope. I'm holding onto it, so it's in a nice, round coil. I'll try and loop this over the closest stalagmite!"
DM: "Hmmm....sure, maybe there is one just close enough....or maybe not. Looks like another Defy Danger, using Dex again, but roll at -2 because you didn't plan for it and it is slippery...being dotted with bat shite n' all"
Player: "[rolls; with -2 gets another 9] Another 9!? Just not my day, is it?"
DM: "Ok, you can get it around a stalagmite...but it might break and send you hurtling backwards, down into the depths. Or...you can toss your rope and grab onto the edge, wedge a foot or two into some cracks, and be clinging onto the ledge of the chasm, but be down 1d6' from the top. What are you going to do?"
Player: "I need this rope! Then again, those...THINGS...will be here any second with their sticky, poison tentacles. Oh man....uh..."
DM: "You do hear their slobbering yowls getting closer...but you also hear something that sounds like rushing water below you...not sure how far though..."
Player: "I'm holding onto the rope. It's too important. I hope that stalagmite holds!"

...and that's basically how I 'run' DW. The player decides what they want to do, I decide if a Move is in order and usually what it is (but the player can suggest, obviously). Sometimes, during the conversation between me and the Players, something interesting or cool will pop into my head and I'll try and add it into the scene...the part about the water I made up 'on the spot' when I got to it in my example describing the monster noises for added tension.

Now, as for how you can try and implement this into your group...just be honest and tell them. Read the page 13 thing, and maybe read some of the Examples of Play to back up that you were supposed to be the one deciding what Moves would/could be made for a situation...usually anyway. I'd give them the option to either keep playing, or, retire the PC's and make new ones. Maybe fledgling adventurers who heard about their great exploits...or maybe hirelings they've had (or have).

The key thing to remember with DW is this: "To goal of the game is for everyone to collectively create a world and story as you play. It is not to 'win' or even 'succeed'...those are secondary or even tertiary considerations. Just make stuff up and roll with it".

(1) Veins of the Earth is an absolutely amazing take on the classic "Underdark/Deepearth" setting. It's creepy, terrifying, and fascinating. It's built for "classic fantasy games" (re: basic D&D'ish), but because of this, it's dirt simple to convert to whatever system you are playing. Including DW. Hit up DriveThru or Amazon to grab a PDF or, better still, the hardback print version.

 

[Nebulous]

I only ran DW once and enjoyed it, but I am sure I need to "unlearn" so, so, so much.