Dungeon World

[JeffB]

What's not established is whether and how this fictional position has any meaning at all on the game.

Sure it does- what do you do now?- try to get the flames out? How do you do that with the Hell Hound now holding onto that arm? Either way you now have a choice to make, your arm or burning flesh and face....and then your defy danger roll may cause other complications. Maybe the PC decides to worry about his arm more than his face. His next roll could save his arm and the flame goes out- Or save his arm and leave him permanently scarred which I'd probably give a perm debility to for CHA and temp one for being unable to see out of one eye. Or perhaps he worries about the flame, rolls poorly and now and the bites the PC's hand off or permanently disables it- either of which can completely alter the course of the adventure. If he completely fails, it could be both. and other than the initial 5HP, I wouldn't bother using the "deal damage" GM move anymore.

Your fiction and the spoken word triggers moves. what the player says, tags, current circumstances, and the die roll suggests the next course of action which is as mentioned elsewhere in this thread- snowballing dangers unless you roll extremely well.


It's a completely different headspace than D&D. And this scenario would not be possible under any modern version of D&D because it breaks so many rules. In OD&D I do stuff like this, however the Binary outcome of D&D still makes this an unlikely situation not to mention Hell Hounds only breathe or Bite in OD&D- they don't have a grab attack or an exhale function upon a bite. Sure you can break or create the rules to make the fiction better but then you are just making the game more like DW, and then the questions are-

Do you now you need to make rules for these Hell Hound abilities going forward?
How many aions can the Hell Hound perform per round?
What are the rules for maiming and burns?
How does Cure Light Wounds work on this?
If I give these things to a Hell ound how does this affect the XP value?

This has been the age old issue- eventually you end up adding so many rules that they become the straightjacket to the fiction and for no real good reason other than to have rules for every corner case. Dungeon World frees the DM to determine that balance, that severity of consequences, and a whole host of other issues in the moment without having to make rules exceptions to a strict set of rules.

 

[Ovinomancer]

@JeffB already did a good job on this, so I'll add my thoughts to that.

Maybe... I don't think we can establish that just from the information we are given.

The second description could easily be the description of a 1e or BECMI character attacked by a hellhound and taking 1d6 damage plus 1d3 fire damage. In fact, that sort of narrated fictional positioning is pretty typical for me in a D&D game and has been for decades. I'm translating the abstract mechanic into some sort of dramatic narration. I don't always do that, as too much of that can get tedious, but I do that a lot.

What's not established is whether and how this fictional position has any meaning at all on the game.

It absolutely is established in the fiction, because that's how DW works -- there's no 'flavor' descriptions to layer onto the mechanical status updates the fiction produces, there's just the fiction that results.

a) Does being on fire force equipment savings throws (as it would in 1e AD&D) or not (as it wouldn't have in 3e D&D)? Is there a chance in DW that the character's magic cloak burns up, and if so, then how is that fortune adjudicated?

I don't recall fire damage forcing saves outright, but a failed saving throw could. No saving throw, no item saves. Or maybe that's 2e?

Anyway, sure, there's plenty of opportunity for the PC's cloak to burn up, if they fail to address being on fire (meaning the DM makes a hard move on them) or they fail in whatever they attempt to do to deal with being on fire, prompting a hard move from the DM. Lots of other ways this could go, JeffB had a different path, just as valid. You establish the fiction, the player engages the fiction, and you see what happens.

b) Does the described bite imply the character now has the Grappled condition (as it would have in 3e D&D) or is it mostly just color (as it would have most likely been at most 1e AD&D tables)? Under what circumstances other than fiat or whim is that grappled condition imposed and how is it escaped?

It means that there's a hell hound holding onto your arm. There's no mechanical tag for this -- there doesn't need to be. It's the current state of the fiction, what are you (the player) going to do about it? As for it being 'removed', that's going to depend on what the player does and how that check works out.

c) Does being on fire suggest any more damage from the Hell Hound's next attack than would be implied by 1d6 bite damage + 1d3 fire damage? Or will the GM simply narrate the same damage again using more color to suggest the increasing severity of the attack?

No and no. It means you are on fire. If you, personally, in real life, were on fire, what would happen if you didn't do anything about it (or even did)? That's what's on the table in DW, now. Your character is on fire, what are you gonna do about that? The consequences can be quite dire. It's should absolutely not be repeat d3's of damage, though. That's not even remotely interesting.

 

[Celebrim]

Dungeon World frees the DM to determine that balance, that severity of consequences, and a whole host of other issues in the moment without having to make rules exceptions to a strict set of rules.

That was the answer I was fishing for. Thanks.

I'll pass.

 

[JeffB]

That was the answer I was fishing for. Thanks.

I'll pass.

It's not for everyone. Players and DM shares narrative control, Dice have non binary results introducing complications, there is no way to game the system, etc.

That said, I think it's your loss for not trying it before coming to a conclusion.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

That was the answer I was fishing for. Thanks.

I'll pass.

It's definitely a game that requires a certain level of trust between GM and players. Trust that the goal for everyone is fun. Trust that if things are not-fun, that a conversation can be had to pivot to doing things that are fun.

 

[Retreater]

Here is the first paragraph, on page 13 of the DW book, under the heading "What's Dungeon World Like To Play?"

I don't think what I've been doing has been antithetical to the rulebook's advice. Specific rulings (like not requiring rolls for the casting of rotes) may have given the characters more power than they would have had otherwise, but that wasn't clearly defined in the rules as far as my players or I could find.
The other major issue I've had - the soft vs. hard moves - isn't really clearly defined in the book either (again, from what I could tell). And even from the advice given in this thread and the linked advice PDF, it's more "as the GM you should just do what you think would enhance the game/make it more interesting."
I think most of us here on ENWorld (which is a pretty D&D/d20 leaning community) would say that you shouldn't assume a GM should just change the parameters of the game rules to up the challenge, i.e.: giving the monsters devastating attacks with no basis (or advice) in the rules, grant them the ability to take additional actions until the party is ready to run away from the fight, etc. If that's the case, why even have a game engine? Why even let the players roll dice?

 

[Celebrim]

It's definitely a game that requires a certain level of trust between GM and players.

My commitment as a GM is to run a the sort of game that I would enjoy as a player. Neither as a GM or as a player am I comfortable with rules by fiat. More importantly, I'm playing a game called "Dungeon World". If I really want to play a game that ignores the challenge aesthetic of play for the sake of story, I'm probably not going to choose a game where everyone plays a barbarian, fighter, rogue, bard, druid, etc. goes into a dungeon. What's the point of being a combat focused game without a meaningful tactical component, and where what happens in a fight is purely the whim of a GM?

In any event, all the advice that is being given to the OP amounts to, "Well, you should have been arbitrarily more nasty and pulled more arbitrary shenanigans on the PCs. It's your fault for not being unfair enough."

 

[pming]

Hiya!

And even from the advice given in this thread and the linked advice PDF, it's more "as the GM you should just do what you think would enhance the game/make it more interesting."

Maybe try to think of running a DW game not so much as a Game, so much as "collaborative story-telling with dice".

I don't know if you are an actual writer of fiction or non-fiction, but for the sake of argument I'm going to assume you are not. At least not any more than the majority of RPG fans and GM's out there. So...

If you got a call from a publisher who said "You're an RPG'er aren't you? Ok, great. Write us a short story, about 3k words. We'll pay you based on how good it is. You have 4 months". You are up for the challenge, so off you go. Four months later you submit, and they say "Er...that was...bad. Like, high-school drama class level bad. Here's $50. Write a new one for us, as before; 3k words, 4 months". Off you go. You submit and they say "Well, better than the last. Not good, but better. Here's $100. Write us another one". ... ... Rinse and repeat. What would happen to your writing capability after, say a year or two?

Exactly. You'd get better.

Think of running DW like you would learning how to write a compelling fantasy story. You WILL suck the first time around. Probably the second and maybe even the third. But, bit by bit, you would "hone your craft" and get better. You'd start to get a feeling for dramatic effect, comedic relief, pacing, timing, foreshadowing, and all the other things that successful writers know.

Same thing with DW. Right now, you suck. Sorry, it's probably true; I sucked just as much...trust me!...my players almost didn't give me a second chance, but they did...and I...no, WE got better. We all got the hang of building off of one another's "hook" or "vibe". I learned how to use timing, pacing, and all the other story writing tricks to help the players build off of what I was laying down, so to say. Stick with Dungeon World and you will all get better. It just takes time and experience, like most things in life.

Trust me when I say this: The dungeon world campaign I ran last, lasted a few months (basically all of Summer). It is easily one of the most easily re-countable and memorable campaigns for ANY game that we've played. There is something just so...personal...to what gets created by everyone at the table. Descriptions, mannerisms, little language/voice 'isms for various PC's and NPC's, etc. At the end of it, we all felt like we created a world and a story, filled with interesting NPC's and locations...because we all did. It was a group effort. I think because of that, everyone remembers virtually everything about it. Like everyone watching a favourite movie for the 4th time; everyone can geek-out about it and really get into the world/backstory of virtually anything in the movie. Same thing with our Dungeon World creation. It's not just my world...it was, and is, our world.

My suggestion: Stick it out! Retire the current batch of high-level PC's and start new ones. Use what folks here have mentioned...or not. Whatever you think is cool, do that. One thing that really hit hard with my Players was when I asked them "Where is your PC from?", and they asked "I don't know. Is there an out of the way town...mining town...in some foothills or something?"...and I replied... "I don't know. Why are you asking me? Grab the map and write down where your PC's town and hills are. You do it". A light bulb went off over all of their heads and they were INSTANTLY excited about the game world. Instantly. Why? They could write in what THEY wanted to fit their own idea of their PC. It hit home the fact that DW is a collaborative effort...not just a DM presenting stuff for the Players. ... ... Just like learning how to write good stories, it took a good half-dozen sessions for us all to learn how to "write the campaign together". It was an amazing thing for all of us. Keep trying! You won't be dissapointed.

 

[JeffB]

My commitment as a GM is to run a the sort of game that I would enjoy as a player. Neither as a GM or as a player am I comfortable with rules by fiat. More importantly, I'm playing a game called "Dungeon World". If I really want to play a game that ignores the challenge aesthetic of play for the sake of story, I'm probably not going to choose a game where everyone plays a barbarian, fighter, rogue, bard, druid, etc. goes into a dungeon. What's the point of being a combat focused game without a meaningful tactical component, and where what happens in a fight is purely the whim of a GM?

In any event, all the advice that is being given to the OP amounts to, "Well, you should have been arbitrarily more nasty and pulled more arbitrary shenanigans on the PCs. It's your fault for not being unfair enough."

Based on this Id say you don't understand the game at all. This is not a traditional roleplaying game and it's not a DM vs Player game. It sounds to me like you have had issues with bad M's before. That's not a rules issue, that's a DM issue.

Its free, read it, try it out, efore you make erroneous assumptions.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

I will say that I had the EXACT same issue as the OP. My fighter was untouchable in combat. I could have done any number of the things mentioned in this thread.

But ultimately, he was the combat monster, and when the team got in combat, he excelled.

My thief player. He wandered off and found himself an intelligent sword that spoke to only him. He had a great time.

My barbarian ran up to the "chest" after the party went through a gauntlet of traps and decided to open the thing. Guess what - it exploded, killing him and the cleric. It's exactly how he wanted to go.

Those players still talk about my flawed DW game as one of their favorite campaigns. The thief player asks me when I'm going to run DW again. Who knows. I need a story hook to hang all the player stuff on.

Oh yeah, there shouldn't be 2 Fighters in a DW game. Each class is unique in the world. It says it somewhere towards the beginning...