D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[cbwjm]

I would like to see you try something like that, within the confines of 2e design that is. No kit ever modified a base class on such a fundamental level -at most the minstrel that opened the bard class to all elves -



Just a sample of opinions from this one forum:
















Every time a "we don't need a sorcerer" comes up, "the wizard is generic enough to cover for it" is implied...

There was a 2e fighter kit for savage baronies or red steel (not 100% on the name) that turned them into a type of paladin with spell access, no reason why a 2e kit couldn't have done something for the wizard that removed the spellbook and provided them with sorcerer like spell access.

Also, the wizard can be used as a sorcerer-like class, I've done it and it works fine. I don't even need a replacement for the loss of the spellbook but, if I was going to merge the classes together into a single class with different origins then I would look at ability replacements.

 

[MoonSong]

There was a 2e fighter kit for savage baronies or red steel (not 100% on the name) that turned them into a type of paladin with spell access, no reason why a 2e kit couldn't have done something for the wizard that removed the spellbook and provided them with sorcerer like spell access.

Also, the wizard can be used as a sorcerer-like class, I've done it and it works fine. I don't even need a replacement for the loss of the spellbook but, if I was going to merge the classes together into a single class with different origins then I would look at ability replacements.

My problem with deliberately ignoring features, is that it is a passive way to hurt your party. Maybe not a problem for everyone, but I don't optimize -sometimes the complete opposite-, if I were to purposely ignore character abilities I would turn into a real liability for the group.

 

[FrogReaver]

It means I prefer only the core classes, not that wizards are generic enough to cover what anyone else wants. Just a personal preference. I prefer only the basic ice cream flavors like vanilla and chocolate. That doesn't mean I'm saying chocolate is generic enough that replaces Rocky road.

A followup question - why do you only prefer the core classes?

 

[dave2008]

The only reason I think not to merge wizard, sorcerer, and warlock into a single customisable class that lets you create the spellcasting class you want is complexity. There would be a lot of moving parts in the base class to customise your magic-user that it might be off putting to new players. As is, I have used the wizard to create a "sorcerer" an Oracle with innate divination abilities. I just ignored the spellbook part of a diviner wizard.

Obviously a complete redesign, but I'm pretty much on the same page with this idea. One arcane cast class with a lot of options / sub-classes / backgrounds that allow you to make a wizard, sorcerer, warlock, witch, etc.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Obviously a complete redesign, but I'm pretty much on the same page with this idea. One arcane cast class with a lot of options / sub-classes / backgrounds that allow you to make a wizard, sorcerer, warlock, witch, etc.

Isn't that just half way to abandoning the class system entirely in favour of a point buy system?

 

[dave2008]

Isn't that just half way to abandoning the class system entirely in favour of a point buy system?

I don't think it needs to be point buy, but I would prefer just three classes : martial, arcane, & divine and every concept branches from those.

 

[Minigiant]

Every time a "we don't need a sorcerer" comes up, "the wizard is generic enough to cover for it" is implied...

"the wizard was generic enough to cover for it"
Was
The Warlock and Sorcerer could have been part of the Wizard. Back in 2e.

But the AD&D and 3rd edition designers and community where too afraid, conservative, traditional, or apprehensive to alter wizards to be anything but magic bookworms that had nothing but high Int, a spelbook, and a bunch of spell slots.

Now Warlocks and Sorcerer diverted too much from wizards. They have their own flavors. Wizard's flavor was solidified. And now we have things like artificers, psions, binders, shamans, and truenamers.

 

[cbwjm]

Isn't that just half way to abandoning the class system entirely in favour of a point buy system?

Maybe. I see it as choosing options in a way similar to the current warlock which chooses a subclass then a pact at a later level. Just as two fiend pact warlocks could appear different (one summons a weapon, another has an empowered familiar, while a third has greater breadth of magic via a book of shadows). You could have three magic-users one having made a pact with a fiend, another studied infernal magic, while the third was born with the blood of fiends.

 

[tetrasodium]

People are debating is sorcerer can fit under wizard. TBH there is so much overlap in spell lists that it basically can

Here is the overlap

• Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
• 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
• 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
• 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
• 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
• 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
• 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
• 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
• 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
• 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague

So on & so forth but 6th level spells on on is well into the point where campaigns have ended or are ending & wotc's own numbers from ddb support that. No doubt there are a handful of useful spells n wizard list but nt sorc list... problem being is that almost every single one of the "right spells" as people have been labeling them are on both lists & the spells unique to wizard are not enough to build any kind of theme or niche around.... If paladin, ranger, EK, & AT had this kind of overlap in so much of their class features people would wonder why

 

[FrogReaver]

People are debating is sorcerer can fit under wizard. TBH there is so much overlap in spell lists that it basically can

Here is the overlap

• Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
• 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
• 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
• 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
• 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
• 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
• 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
• 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
• 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
• 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague

So on & so forth but 6th level spells on on is well into the point where campaigns have ended or are ending & wotc's own numbers from ddb support that. No doubt there are a handful of useful spells n wizard list but nt sorc list... problem being is that almost every single one of the "right spells" as people have been labeling them are on both lists & the spells unique to wizard are not enough to build any kind of theme or niche around.... If paladin, ranger, EK, & AT had this kind of overlap in so much of their class features people would wonder why

Overlap doesn't imply that it's able to support it. The wizard has many features that make no sense for a sorcerer. The subclasses make little sense for one either.

Could there exist an Arcane Caster class that supported both sorcerer and wizard concepts. I think everyone agreees that's possible.