Todd Roybark
Hero
My transcript from U.C. Berkeley begs to differ.
D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)
- Thread starter MoonSong
- Start date
Harry Blackstone Dresden
Harry was not once but twice an apprentice to a master and hit the books.
Harry is a sorcerer/wizard/warlock. I wont spoil the subclasses.
Every wizard in the Dresdenverse is a sorc/wiz multiclass. They all use internal personal magic tied honed from focus and external magical formula learned from study.
And there are more human sorcerers than human wizards.
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TheCosmicKid
Hero
The Dresdenverse wizard is more like a sorcerer prestige class. It builds on the same power. Everything Dresden does with his spellbooks and rituals is to focus his internal magical ability. There are at least three different kinds of warlock, at least one of which works the same way: the otherworldly being with which one has a pact serves as a tutor, teaching the mage how to manipulate their magic rather than giving them magic. The others are more along the lines of supplements/substitutes to personal power that we're familiar with.
But it should also be mentioned that Harry actually plays D&D, and is in fact a barbarian.
The Dresdenverse wizard is more like a sorcerer prestige class. It builds on the same power. Everything Dresden does with his spellbooks and rituals is to focus his internal magical ability. There are at least three different kinds of warlock, at least one of which works the same way: the otherworldly being with which one has a pact serves as a tutor, teaching the mage how to manipulate their magic rather than giving them magic. The others are more along the lines of supplements/substitutes to personal power that we're familiar with.
But it should also be mentioned that Harry actually plays D&D, and is in fact a barbarian.
Dresdenverse wizards also know how to snag energy from the environment. This is something regular practitioners can't do and that actually sorcerers need to help or info from actual wizards or magical beings to do.
In 3e, White council wizards are a sorcerers with prestige classes.
In 4e, they are sorcerers with ritual caster, the wizard multiclass feat, and a crazy paragon path.
In 5e, they are sorc/wiz.
There is no reason to merge the classes together. Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done or needs to be done. Quite often discussion on merging these two classes looks like some of the people pushing for it are trying to write "wizard" on their character sheet and add metamagic back under that umbrella.
The point of having a sorcerer is so that a player can choose something similar without being forced into playing a wizard. That's no different than having a druid option instead of a cleric or a barbarian option instead of a fighter. The additional classes in a class based system cover similar roles while providing different class options. That's not something I want to see removed. It's only an issue if the number of classes becomes excessive and that is not the case here.
5e uses metamagic to demonstrate the sorcerer's innate ability to bend magic. Trading between sorcery points and spell slots follows similar reasoning. Metamagic does not need to represent that ability but in 5e that is how sorcerers represent it and why it's a sorcerer ability.
Other than similar armor and weapon proficiencies, and similar hit dice, there are significant differences between the two classes.
INT vs CHA changes the ability check capabilities. 5e places more emphasis on the ability score bonus than 3e or 4e did in these checks to make that difference more prominent. Wizards are more adept and recalling lore while sorcerers or more smooth sly talkers.
The difference in spells known versus prepared is significant. Wizards are considered more of an educated caster while Sorcerers are not. That was clearly demonstrated when the devs stated ritual casting was an educated caster trait in how it was determined to be given to spell casters. That also makes sense in why wizards have a much larger spell list available with many spells not available to sorcerers.
There is a lot of overlap in sorcerer spells available to the wizard but the reverse is definitely not true. It would have been nice to see more sorcerer spells not available to wizards or more of a free form casting mechanic but considering neither is true we are left with a clear intent for wizards to encompass a lot more spell possibilities.
Sorcerers provide a spell caster that gives players a class with metamagic. It's "nice toys" and the reason to play the class. Wizards get spell variety instead. That's the reason to play that class. Separating those traits in the classes creates a meaningful choice for the player and helps limit the potential a class with both might have. That's a good thing.
Yes. At low levels we both had sleep but generally the wizard simply had different spells prepped than I had known. He occasionally used rituals that were useful for the group to have and I flaunted twin spell in his face. ;-)
The general result was we worked together instead of competed against each other. That's a key point these types of discussions seem to miss. If the party has one or the other the missing one is irrelevant to game play and if both are present they work together. Only players who choose not to work together create an issue and that's the players not the classes.
The point of having a sorcerer is so that a player can choose something similar without being forced into playing a wizard. That's no different than having a druid option instead of a cleric or a barbarian option instead of a fighter. The additional classes in a class based system cover similar roles while providing different class options. That's not something I want to see removed. It's only an issue if the number of classes becomes excessive and that is not the case here.
5e uses metamagic to demonstrate the sorcerer's innate ability to bend magic. Trading between sorcery points and spell slots follows similar reasoning. Metamagic does not need to represent that ability but in 5e that is how sorcerers represent it and why it's a sorcerer ability.
Other than similar armor and weapon proficiencies, and similar hit dice, there are significant differences between the two classes.
INT vs CHA changes the ability check capabilities. 5e places more emphasis on the ability score bonus than 3e or 4e did in these checks to make that difference more prominent. Wizards are more adept and recalling lore while sorcerers or more smooth sly talkers.
The difference in spells known versus prepared is significant. Wizards are considered more of an educated caster while Sorcerers are not. That was clearly demonstrated when the devs stated ritual casting was an educated caster trait in how it was determined to be given to spell casters. That also makes sense in why wizards have a much larger spell list available with many spells not available to sorcerers.
There is a lot of overlap in sorcerer spells available to the wizard but the reverse is definitely not true. It would have been nice to see more sorcerer spells not available to wizards or more of a free form casting mechanic but considering neither is true we are left with a clear intent for wizards to encompass a lot more spell possibilities.
Sorcerers provide a spell caster that gives players a class with metamagic. It's "nice toys" and the reason to play the class. Wizards get spell variety instead. That's the reason to play that class. Separating those traits in the classes creates a meaningful choice for the player and helps limit the potential a class with both might have. That's a good thing.
Yes. At low levels we both had sleep but generally the wizard simply had different spells prepped than I had known. He occasionally used rituals that were useful for the group to have and I flaunted twin spell in his face. ;-)
The general result was we worked together instead of competed against each other. That's a key point these types of discussions seem to miss. If the party has one or the other the missing one is irrelevant to game play and if both are present they work together. Only players who choose not to work together create an issue and that's the players not the classes.
MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Yes, I have the impression @tetrasodium 's players weren't working together, and were out to outdo each other. Also that the wizard player isn't too skilled while the sorcerer player is optimized like crazy -if not outright cheating by convincing Tetrasodioum that the sorcerer had the warlock's proficiencies-.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
One thing I've thought about off and on is just having a whole bunch (like 50-60) classes, that just take up a page or two with no mechanical choices. Fixed spell lists, fixed ASIs or feats. You can customize a bit with race and background, but otherwise you just play the class. Then you can just develop a bunch of hyper-specific classes for new settings.
Undrave
Legend
I could see a system like that. Minimalist classes but in wide quantity and variety. Furthermore, I would do classes in tier... like you get a class from level 1 to 10, but when you reach level 11 you pick from a new selection of advanced classes and then again at 21 to 30.
There would be prerequisite but they would be a bit soft like "X stat at X" or "proficiency with X" or "Can cast X" and so on so you don't have to have list all the classes leading to it.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Or heck, don’t have any prereqs at all. Shadow of the Demon Lord does something similar and it works really well. You just need to have higher tier features that are additive rather than improvements.
