D&D 5E Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?

[Cap'n Kobold]

For my tastes they should have just made this a "normal" or "default" encounter.

​

:mostly rhetorical: What's the point of combat if it's not deadly? Why bother with encounters that are there just for XP boosters or to fit the "minimum # of encounters per day". It's fine in OD&D where you can roll through 6 -8 encounters in an hour of play in your 70s style dungeon of 100 rooms. It's a poor fit for any modern versions of the game.​

​

​

"Normal" or "Deadly are just labels the system uses. A "medium" encounter close to the end of the adventuring day, when the everyone is out of hid dice and the casters are down to cantrips is more lethal than a "deadly" encounter at the beginning of the day that could just be novaed through.

Also, of note... is there ANY fiction out there with a hero with a golf-bag of magic swords with different property like you were apparently supposed to have as 1e-2e Fighter? Was that a thing before DnD? Yes, there is stories where you need to find the ONE legendary weapon to defeat the bad guy, but those stories don't end up with the hero then going to collect the legendary weapon from OTHER stories. They have ONE and that's it.

The closest and most recent example might be the Witcher - He carries two swords: Steel for fighting people, and Silver for fighting monsters (which are often less resistant/more vulnerable to silver in the fiction.)

 

[tetrasodium]

=

This isn't a direct response to anybody but let me just say: I don't really care much for 'appeal to tradition' as a design ethos. It's interesting to learn how the game used to be designed but I'm not interested in replicating it 1:1 in 5e just because it's 'how it used to be'.



I think the 6-8 encounter guidelines are a bit much. I feel like the game would be better served if it was balanced around 4-5 encounters per day instead.

agree on the adam west batman encounter needs but on the appeal to tradition point, as someone who's been pointing at stuff from prior versions it's not just for "tradition". People point at those things from old versions like common DR asf/acp/crit range/crit mutiplier/SR/etc because of how those mechanics affect gameplay differently from 5e's equivalent(resistant to nonmahgical b/p/s) or 5e's empty hole & in many cases in this thread there's been in depth discussion about those effects. too many of those old mechanics were jettisoned away or defanged into irrelevance in the name of simplification & streamlining without enough attention to the benefits of those things & side effects of removing them.

@Undrave as to using your greatsword as an improvised club... I might let you use your +3 icy burstgreatsword as a 1d6 20/x2 club, but not a +3icy burst club... I'd probably point out that you could eat an AoO & give up an attack or something to grab that light mace a few feet away where that other skeleton is laying in a pile

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Maybe in your game it does, but that's definitely house rule territory. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's certainly not universal.

Lol no. It’s RAW. Fire damage isn’t “non-magical bludgeoning slashing or piercing damage”. It needn’t be magical fire.

 

[Arilyn]

You know, speaking of that first part...

Am I the only one who thinks that a SWORD doing less damage than a STAFF to a skeleton is really stupid? Like really dumb? The sword is still a giant hunk of metal! When it hits those bones its gonna break them just the same as a bludgeoning weapon! Plus, have you ever watched Forged in Fire? They test all sorts of blades on pig carcasses on that show and they more often than not manage to slice through the spine!

I can totally see how piercing weapon wouldn't work, since there's nothing to jab into, but slashing weapons? Nope. If in that scene the Fighter was using a rapier or a spear that would make sense but a sword or axe? Nah, the wizard should keep their stick and witty remark.

Yeah, you should be able to bash with a long sword, and definitely a greatsword. And you should also be useless with a bow if your strength is low.

So, I'll let the fighter wirh a sword get away with hurting those bones, but no rapiers. You want your 20 Dex, 8 Str. rapier wielding dandy, you gotta pay for it somehow.

 

[Undrave]

​

​

"Normal" or "Deadly are just labels the system uses. A "medium" encounter close to the end of the adventuring day, when the everyone is out of hid dice and the casters are down to cantrips is more lethal than a "deadly" encounter at the beginning of the day that could just be novaed through.

The closest and most recent example might be the Witcher - He carries two swords: Steel for fighting people, and Silver for fighting monsters (which are often less resistant/more vulnerable to silver in the fiction.)

Two different weapons and maybe a ranged weapon for flying enemies is perfectly fine. But having a cold iron weapon, a good weapon, a chaotic weapon, a fire weapon etc etc?

=

agree on the adam west batman encounter needs but on the appeal to tradition point, as someone who's been pointing at stuff from prior versions it's not just for "tradition". People point at those things from old versions like common DR asf/acp/crit range/crit mutiplier/SR/etc because of how those mechanics affect gameplay differently from 5e's equivalent(resistant to nonmahgical b/p/s) or 5e's empty hole & in many cases in this thread there's been in depth discussion about those effects. too many of those old mechanics were jettisoned away or defanged into irrelevance in the name of simplification & streamlining without enough attention to the benefits of those things & side effects of removing them.

@Undrave as to using your greatsword as an improvised club... I might let you use your +3 icy burstgreatsword as a 1d6 20/x2 club, but not a +3icy burst club... I'd probably point out that you could eat an AoO & give up an attack or something to grab that light mace a few feet away where that other skeleton is laying in a pile

To me, it feels like a lot of old challenges were rooted in 'gotcha!' mechanics and were rendered moot by enough system mastery, especially in relation to spells.

It's interesting to note that a lot of what made old challenges 'challenging' like not having the right spell prepared at the right level, were rendered moot by giving the casters a boost to their flexibility. I find it ironic you, who want the Wizard to be better, complain the game is too easy at the same time

I don't know why a +3 Ice Burst Sword wouldn't be Magical if not used as a sword. Just make it a +3 Icy Burst Club. I mean, in 5e a Greatsword is a two handed 2D6 weapon. A Greatclub is two handed 1D8. Seem like a fair drop in effectiveness if used as a blunt instrument.

 

[slobster]

Two different weapons and maybe a ranged weapon for flying enemies is perfectly fine. But having a cold iron weapon, a good weapon, a chaotic weapon, a fire weapon etc etc?

Since you had originally asked for "any fiction" where a hero totes around a golf bag of weapons for different situations, I submit Zelda: Breath of the Wild, or really any of a number of RPGs and adventure video games. In those games, having an arsenal to suit the situation is not only normal, it's required by the systems of the game and the quirks of the enemies you fight.

I know, a lot of people will think that's cheating because it's a video game, not a book or movie, so it doesn't count as real fiction. Or that people who include video games in their list of story references when planning a game are lessening themselves somehow. That's as may be, but I'll just pre-emptively throw out that I disagree, that I've had a lot of fun pulling lessons from various video games when playing and GMing, and as long as it's fun I'll steal from anything and everything!

 

[Undrave]

Since you had originally asked for "any fiction" where a hero totes around a golf bag of weapons for different situations, I submit Zelda: Breath of the Wild, or really any of a number of RPGs and adventure video games. In those games, having an arsenal to suit the situation is not only normal, it's required by the systems of the game and the quirks of the enemies you fight.

I know, a lot of people will think that's cheating because it's a video game, not a book or movie, so it doesn't count as real fiction. Or that people who include video games in their list of story references when planning a game are lessening themselves somehow. That's as may be, but I'll just pre-emptively throw out that I disagree, that I've had a lot of fun pulling lessons from various video games when playing and GMing, and as long as it's fun I'll steal from anything and everything!

I'm fine with video games, but I would posit that those games came AFTER DnD was a thing so it could be said that DnD and its ilk had an impact on the games. Even in the original Zelda you had varied equipment but you didn't have multiple swords at once.

Video games are also a different dynamic by their very nature. For one, they calculate encumbrance for you

Speaking of lessons from video games, you ever played Final Fantasy Four Heroes of Light on the DS? The system in that would make for an interesting TTRPG.

 

[Oofta]

Lol no. It’s RAW. Fire damage isn’t “non-magical bludgeoning slashing or piercing damage”. It needn’t be magical fire.

Where does it state anywhere how much damage lamp oil does? That you can apply lamp oil to a sword? How long does it last? The only mention in the book on lamp oil is that it fuels a lamp for 6 hours.

I agree that fire can do damage. Applying lamp oil to a sword is a house rule.

 

[slobster]

I'm fine with video games, but I would posit that those games came AFTER DnD was a thing so it could be said that DnD and its ilk had an impact on the games. Even in the original Zelda you had varied equipment but you didn't have multiple swords at once.
<snip>
Speaking of lessons from video games, you ever played Final Fantasy Four Heroes of Light on the DS? The system in that would make for an interesting TTRPG.

Oh yeah, I think video game RPGs owe an INCREDIBLE amount to D&D and other TTRPGs. Both Western and Japanese, actually. D&D did it, they were inspired by it, new editions of D&D were in turn inspired by them, and onward the pop culture worm turns.

I'm not super worried about the provenance of an idea when it comes to whether or not I take some cues from it during my game, I just take it if I like it and it contributes to the fun!

As to Four Heroes of Light, no I did not play it, unfortunately. It looks cute though!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Where does it state anywhere how much damage lamp oil does? That you can apply lamp oil to a sword? How long does it last? The only mention in the book on lamp oil is that it fuels a lamp for 6 hours.

I agree that fire can do damage. Applying lamp oil to a sword is a house rule.

That isn’t what a houserule is. The description of oil (you seem to have only read the description of a lantern) give numbers for how long oil stays flammable (my experience differs but oh well it’s a game) and how much damage lit oil does to a character. The fact it doesn’t explicitly cover applying it to a weapon doesn’t make doing so a houserule. A houserule would be if I decided that doing so makes all fo the damage from the attack deal fire damage instead of its normal damage.