"Your Class is Not Your Character": Is this a real problem?

[Chaosmancer]

Practice. The brain is something that can be exercised. You can also be born with high intelligence. It's not the thinking quickly that the ability being learned, though. It's the Cunning Action which takes advantage of being able to think quickly and your speed.

Practice. Got it.

And you can train to increase your speed right?

So any class in the game should be able to take Cunning Action when they level up, correct? I mean, anyone can practice mental excersises and focus on training their reaction times.

So, which mechanic exists for any class to take Cunning Action when they level up in their normal class?

 

[Fenris-77]

Even the idea that "they learn Z ability when they level" is pretty much the opposite of the rest of what you're saying @Maxperson . Abilities and levels are both pretty abstract, but if you want to contextualize stuff and start talking about how that happens in world, you probably don't want to start with the idea that characters suddenly learn a whole bunch of new stuff all at once because something meta happened. The abstractness of abilities also kind of puts the lie to the idea that they're all, or even mostly, 'learned' in the way you mean - Rogues aren't 'practicing' cunning action, just like Barbarians aren't 'practicing' rage - your use of learned is an issue here, as much as I don't like playing the grammar card.

Cunning action is an ability that interacts with the rules and you aren't in a position to decide for everyone how that happens, or to tell people that their story for their character is 'wrong'. Again, the difference between fluff and rules seems to have slipped through the cracks here. I'm sensing a pattern.

 

[raif11152]

I am sure I don't actually want to know but

1) How do you think people can play their class wrong?

2) Since you would not step in and "stop" them, what sort of consequences are you talking about for a player like that?

A class is a job. People do their jobs wrong all the time. Doing your job wrong has consequences. Some jobs, are dangerous. Doing a dangerous job wrong can cause injuries, fatalities, etc.

Not sure what part you don't get. I do note that I was using the ENWORLD android app for the first time today and it replied to a comment rather than creating a base level comment, so my statement may be wildly out of context. If so, my bad.

 

[Maxperson]

Even the idea that "they learn Z ability when they level" is pretty much the opposite of the rest of what you're saying @Maxperson . Abilities and levels are both pretty abstract, but if you want to contextualize stuff and start talking about how that happens in world, you probably don't want to start with the idea that characters suddenly learn a whole bunch of new stuff all at once because something meta happened.

What on earth makes you think that happens. The PC is learning his abilities as he uses them the entire time he is gaining experience. When he levels, he has been learning things moving towards that ability for the entire level. It's not as if he's gone from 0 to 100 just because his exp counter ticked over into the next level.

The abstractness of abilities also kind of puts the lie to the idea that they're all, or even mostly, 'learned' in the way you mean - Rogues aren't 'practicing' cunning action, just like Barbarians aren't 'practicing' rage - your use of learned is an issue here, as much as I don't like playing the grammar card.

Sure they are. Both of them. From level 1 to level 2, the rogue is Dashing and Hiding, and probably Disengaging. As he does that he is learning what works well and what doesn't. Little tricks that click through a level of practice once he hits 2nd level. Same with barbarians and rage.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A class is a job. People do their jobs wrong all the time. Doing your job wrong has consequences. Some jobs, are dangerous. Doing a dangerous job wrong can cause injuries, fatalities, etc.

Not sure what part you don't get. I do note that I was using the ENWORLD android app for the first time today and it replied to a comment rather than creating a base level comment, so my statement may be wildly out of context. If so, my bad.

Yeah, I would recommend double-checking that you have read the thread and understand the current debate.

A big part of the current debate is whether a character's personality is determined by their class, such as a barbarian being required to be uncivilized and therefore not being allowed to be a knight as well.

Your answer, in that context, sounds like engineering character deaths because they played a concept you didn't agree with, which I am going to assume is far far far outside of what you actually would propose.

Your response almost seems more geared to things like a ranged wizard with an 8 sword fighting the BBEG, which is a character acting in a way contrary to the role they are built for, which has not been a part of the discussion to date

 

[Maxperson]

Practice. Got it.

And you can train to increase your speed right?

I've done it. I was a sprinter when I was younger. I got faster through practice. Same with martial artists and striking speed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

What on earth makes you think that happens. The PC is learning his abilities as he uses them the entire time he is gaining experience. When he levels, he has been learning things moving towards that ability for the entire level. It's not as if he's gone from 0 to 100 just because his exp counter ticked over into the next level.

Sure they are. Both of them. From level 1 to level 2, the rogue is Dashing and Hiding, and probably Disengaging. As he does that he is learning what works well and what doesn't. Little tricks that click through a level of practice once he hits 2nd level. Same with barbarians and rage.

Barbarian rage happens at level 1, no previous levels to gain XP in.

What if the rogue never gets to hide, dash or disengage during the entirety of their adventuring at level 1? Do they then not learn Cunning action at level 2?

I've done it. I was a sprinter when I was younger. I got faster through practice. Same with martial artists and striking speed.

I agree, but it seems ENWorld must have cut off the last part of my post, since you didn't see it. I'll repeat it for your convenience.

So any class in the game should be able to take Cunning Action when they level up, correct? I mean, anyone can practice mental excersises and focus on training their reaction times.

So, which mechanic exists for any class to take Cunning Action when they level up in their normal class?

It is a pretty big section of the post, and seems to appear for me, so I'm wondering how you missed it, but such are the vagaries of technology.

 

[Maxperson]

Barbarian rage happens at level 1, no previous levels to gain XP in.

And you think they were born at level 1 do you?

What if the rogue never gets to hide, dash or disengage during the entirety of their adventuring at level 1? Do they then not learn Cunning action at level 2?

In the extremely unlikely event that happens, the rogue could have still been practicing during non-combat. And in the very extremely unlikely even that the rogue somehow levels from 1 to 2 without being able to move, it would create one of those disconnects I mentioned.

So any class in the game should be able to take Cunning Action when they level up, correct? I mean, anyone can practice mental excersises and focus on training their reaction times.

That's what multi-classing is for

 

[Chaosmancer]

And you think they were born at level 1 do you?

I don't but since you are talking about expeirence and levels, it is fair to point out there are no rules for level 0, so I could not assume you were adding those.

In the extremely unlikely event that happens, the rogue could have still been practicing during non-combat. And in the very extremely unlikely even that the rogue somehow levels from 1 to 2 without being able to move, it would create one of those disconnects I mentioned.

So, we must assume that the rogue is practicing hiding, disengaging from hostile forces, and running extra fast. And if the rogue is, say, planning on being an inquisitve investigator who doesn't do those things?

Ah, but they must, the class demands it. Even if they have no proficiency in stealth to indicate they know how to hide in the first place.

Very consistent.

That's what multi-classing is for

I see. I figured that would be your answer.

So, in order to learn how to move quickly and train your mind through mental exercises, you first must have a dexterity of 13. Then you must learn how to wear light armor, figure out how to pick locks, disarm traps, set traps. Learn Thieve's Cant, very important to know the secret code of thieves. Then figure out sneak attack, whatever the fluff for that is. Then learn a new skill, any skill really, even how to be intimidating. Then get really good at some of the skills you have.

Then wait a while while you actually train your ability to think quickly and move quickly, probably a long while, after all, the higher your level the longer it will take to learn some new skills... despite almost that entire paragraph happening in one level of advancement.

Seems like that might make some bad fluff. After all, all of the fighter types know how to use leather armor, theives tools can be easily picked up, Theive's Cant too with just some gold and training. Got skills already, there are a few ways to get expertise... and yet none of that will give you Rogue Level 1.

Strange, still seems like there is mechanic implied by your fluff that isn't in the game

 

[Maxperson]

So, we must assume that the rogue is practicing hiding, disengaging from hostile forces, and running extra fast. And if the rogue is, say, planning on being an inquisitve investigator who doesn't do those things?

Then you should probably talk to your DM about getting an ability that you will actually use. Having Cunning Action is worthless if you don't do those things.

So, in order to learn how to move quickly and train your mind through mental exercises, you first must have a dexterity of 13. Then you must learn how to wear light armor, figure out how to pick locks, disarm traps, set traps. Learn Thieve's Cant, very important to know the secret code of thieves. Then figure out sneak attack, whatever the fluff for that is. Then learn a new skill, any skill really, even how to be intimidating. Then get really good at some of the skills you have.

No game is perfect. Having to jump through these hoops to "prove" your point just ends up supporting mine. The game will have moments that don't make sense. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing to amplify and increase the numbers of those moments.