D&D 5E Homebrew: Removing Concentration From The Less Popular Spells

[MonkeezOnFire]

The issue won’t be with a certain spell. It will be with the multitude of spells that can be stacked. This is especially troublesome in a low combats per day adventure - which is by far the more typical.

At what point does defensive buff stacking just become overkill though? As I DM I already tend to have monsters switch targets when they learn that an individual is buffed in such a way that their attacks aren't as effective.

I suppose what you could do is instead of just making it ludicrously difficult to attack you, you could buff with a wide variety of different kinds of defenses so you don't have any weaknesses. So it's hard to hit you with attacks and you can reliably make saves and you resist a range of damage types. With enough spell slots among the party you might be able to do that to the entire party. That's strong, but also a significant investment of resources into defense in an edition where it is already quite difficult to die. I'm not super worried about low combats per day as I avoid that as a DM. Most combat in my games takes place in long dungeons where resource management is key.

 

[tetrasodium]

At what point does defensive buff stacking just become overkill though? As I DM I already tend to have monsters switch targets when they learn that an individual is buffed in such a way that their attacks aren't as effective.

I suppose what you could do is instead of just making it ludicrously difficult to attack you, you could buff with a wide variety of different kinds of defenses so you don't have any weaknesses. So it's hard to hit you with attacks and you can reliably make saves and you resist a range of damage types. With enough spell slots among the party you might be able to do that to the entire party. That's strong, but also a significant investment of resources into defense in an edition where it is already quite difficult to die. I'm not super worried about low combats per day as I avoid that as a DM. Most combat in my games takes place in long dungeons where resource management is key.

A possible solution for this is to use an individual limit for what bluffs a character can store and set a weight for each buff like they did with ncu memory in narchy online

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

At what point does defensive buff stacking just become overkill though? As I DM I already tend to have monsters switch targets when they learn that an individual is buffed in such a way that their attacks aren't as effective.

The issue wasn't only with the ability to stack buff but, apparently, because at high-level the working strategy against BBEG was to assassinate them by teleporting after a heavy buff session. Few things could withstand an alpha strike. That's why they both made magical movement more difficult (Teleportation is 7th level when it used ot be 5th) and by making buff stacking more difficult. The big reduction of spell numbers in 5e already took care of part of the problem (with many source of AC improving spells, each stacking, you could become immune to physical attacks in 3.5, while it's much more difficult in 5e). So maybe we're seeing an overkill reaction to this problem. The strange thing is, since apparently, high level play is very rare among the player base, I am not sure it's much of a problem right now... Back to the topic at hand, let's see the example above of
stacking :

Stoneskin (grants resistance to normal weapon, 4th level spell)
Mirror Image (idiosyncratic mechanism with a chance to avoid damage thrice, no Concentration BTW, 2nd)
Blur (enemies are at disadvantage to attack you, 2nd level spell)
Fire Shield (attacker hitting you get fire/cold damage, no concentration, 4th level)
Protection from Evil and Good (situational enemy are disadvantaged to attack you, 1st level)

As disadvantage don't stack making Protection useless, Fire Shield and MI stack already with either Stoneskin or Blur. So in a over the top example (requiring 2 4th level spells, 2 2nd level spell and 1 1st-level spell), the mechanical problem stems from combining Stoneskin and Blur.

(Side note: I am starting to think Mirror Image is a better spell at 2nd level to prevent damage on a caster than the 4th level stoneskin since it works on any source of damage, have at least 50% chance of avoiding damage before being spent [so it's like a 50% reduction]... unless the caster can make 3 concentration rolls in a row, I'd say MI is better, what am I missing) ?

Stacking invisibility and stoneskin isn't much better, since Inv. is arguably LESS powerful than Blur... I am surely missing example of "munchkin stacking" but I can't see them with the compliment of 5e spells.

My main problem with Concentration is with utility spells and enemy debuffs maybe, not with party buff.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

(Side note: I am starting to think Mirror Image is a better spell at 2nd level to prevent damage on a caster than the 4th level stoneskin since it works on any source of damage, have at least 50% chance of avoiding damage before being spent [so it's like a 50% reduction]... unless the caster can make 3 concentration rolls in a row, I'd say MI is better, what am I missing) ?

You are missing nothing, Mirror Image is an amazing defensive spell. Especially because it's not dependent on you already having half decent defenses, it's just a flat chance to completely avoid damage. Blur on the other hand loses value if your AC is not already half decent. Disadvantage to hit a low AC is not much of a penalty. Given that neither spell can be cast on others and must be cast on yourself I have no idea why Blur is concentration and Mirror Image isn't.

Stacking invisibility and stoneskin isn't much better, since Inv. is arguably LESS powerful than Blur... I am surely missing example of "munchkin stacking" but I can't see them with the compliment of 5e spells.

This is similar to the thought experiment I was going through. While magic is more versatile with everyone spontaneous casting, it's also gotten less impactful since 3.X. I struggle to think of a real example of buff stacking abuse. The closest I could come up with is giving the entire party Stoneskin + Protection from Energy when preparing to face a dragon. But again, that is spending a lot of daily resources on defenses.

Also Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are spells I definitely wouldn't remove concentration from. They get utility in combat and exploration so fail to fit into the category I defined. I was careful to define it to exclude standouts like Invisibility, Fly and Polymorph.

 

[NotAYakk]

You cast stoneskin on your lockdown grapple build tank. They now take half damage from most melee attacks and stand up for much longer.

Stoneskin + Mirror Image makes you really hard to drop. You do need to make concentration checks on damage, but the DC is unlikely to be over 10 (40 damage from a physical attack is rare) unless you are fighting an angel or something.

With con proficiency and warcaster and 14 con, your chance of failing a DC 10 check is less than 10% at pretty much every level.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

This is similar to the thought experiment I was going through. While magic is more versatile with everyone spontaneous casting, it's also gotten less impactful since 3.X. I struggle to think of a real example of buff stacking abuse. The closest I could come up with is giving the entire party Stoneskin + Protection from Energy when preparing to face a dragon. But again, that is spending a lot of daily resources on defenses.

Especially since there is a cheap Potion of Resistance in 5e, granting resistance to a type of energy for one hour, without needing concentration. I'd say a party that has time to prepare and resources to cast enough 3rd level spells could make the investment to buy enough potions of Fire Resistance. I am playing in Eberron, so I can't see such a useful potion not being available in the largest markets.

Also Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are spells I definitely wouldn't remove concentration from. They get utility in combat and exploration so fail to fit into the category I defined. I was careful to define it to exclude standouts like Invisibility, Fly and Polymorph.

I'd agree if you're DM'ing invisibility as "you can explore freely, just make sure not to make enough noise". I have read on this board that some DMs play it "RAW", simply granting the "invisible" condition to the target (advantage on attack, disadvantage on defence), not preventing one from being noticed altogether. I have played with the latter, so I can see a problem with stacking flying and invisibility for example.

 

[Immoralkickass]

Also, pretty sure there was a thread arguing about what a crappy spell Barkskin is. Thought besides removing concentration, i'd rather turn it into Druid's version of mage armor.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I'd agree if you're DM'ing invisibility as "you can explore freely, just make sure not to make enough noise". I have read on this board that some DMs play it "RAW", simply granting the "invisible" condition to the target (advantage on attack, disadvantage on defence), not preventing one from being noticed altogether. I have played with the latter, so I can see a problem with stacking flying and invisibility for example.

I rule invisibility as always granting the option to hide since it's effectively total concealment. Which means that on a character with a high enough stealth bonus it comes pretty close to free exploration. As long as the enemies weren't previously alerted that is. I do sometimes have to remind my players that their enemies do in fact have object permanence.

Also, pretty sure there was a thread arguing about what a crappy spell Barkskin is. Thought besides removing concentration, i'd rather turn it into Druid's version of mage armor.

I totally forgot about Barkskin. It definitely fits into my category of purely defensive buff to have concentration just straight removed. I do kind of like that it feels different from Mage Armor though so I'd be tempted to just take off concentration and see what happens. 16 AC is a bit more than what a typical caster would get from Mage Armor (typically +1 to +2 Dex for a total of 14 or 15 AC). But it's higher spell level and shorter duration make up for that in my mind.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I rule invisibility as always granting the option to hide since it's effectively total concealment. Which means that on a character with a high enough stealth bonus it comes pretty close to free exploration. As long as the enemies weren't previously alerted that is. I do sometimes have to remind my players that their enemies do in fact have object permanence.

Sorry if I am repeating others but I don't have time to catch up on the thread right now.

Invisibility grants heavy obscurement RAW unless the target can detect invisible, so you can always take the Hide action, even if right in front of the target. What that means is your Stealth check is really about moving or remaining quiet.

We scout while invisible all the time at our table, but must still make Stealth checks when moving to remain silent. The check is made with advantage because you are solely focused on remaining quiet and don't have to worry about being seen. Making the check vs passive (or winning the contested check if the target is actively on guard) means you are hidden.

The only reason I might keep it concentration is because at higher levels with multiple castings, the entire party could walk around unseen... All I can say it is a good thing Silence isn't mobile.

EDIT: I'll give you an idea of what happens with our Scout...

Our druid casts Pass w/o Trace and then Wildshapes into a tiny beast, climbing into the rogue's pocket. Our Wizard then casts Invisibility on the rogue. The rogue then walks around invisible, gaining advantage on his stealth check, which is at +10 due to Pw/oT., which he also has expertise in. So, altogether he is +20 on his checks, with advantage. Pretty much one hour of free exploration.... FYI, it has been this way since 5th level.

 

[tetrasodium]

Another problem with the overuse of concentration that I don't think has been raised in the thread is how it changes the cost of other things by reducing how buffs are used. Back in the day there was a cost of "pre-exploring" an entire dungeon while the party hangs back because mage armor was 1hr/level, barkskin 10min/level, resist energy 10min/level, bears endurance/cat's grace/etc 1min/level, protection from evil 1min/level, bless 1min/level, so on & so forth so there was some pressure not to treat every dungeon crawl or whatever like you were in tomb of horrors