D&D 5E Softening Concentration

[Voadam]

Interesting. Is that in the DMG? Got a page number?

The closest I can find in the DMG on three rounds is the discussion on page 278 about averaging damage ouptuts over three rounds for judging the damage output of a monster with spiking variable attacks when calculating CR.

If a monster's damage output varies from round to round, calculate its damage output each round for the first three rounds of combat, and take the average. For example, a young white dragon has a multiattack routine (one bite attack and two claw attacks) that deals an average of 37 damage each round, as well as a breath weapon that deals 45 damage, or 90 if it hits two targets (and it probably will). In the first three rounds of combat, the dragon will probably get to use its breath weapon once and its multiattack routine twice, so its average damage output for the first three rounds would be (90 + 37 + 37) + 3, or 54 damage (rounded down).

This of course does not say that CR assumes three round combats.

 

[Yaarel]

Concentration is an important balancing mechanism. It is a blunt tool. But as long as only spells that require it have it, it is valuable to help remedy caster/martial disparity. And it is flavorful enough.

The core rules updated many spells for 2024. A few spells gained Concentration where it was lacking, such as for Forcecage. A few spells lost Concentration that didnt need it, such as Barkskin. There are probably still spells that require future attention.

Finetuning exactly which spells really need Concentration is an excellent way to prevent casters from "layering" too many powerful spell effects simultaneously.

Spells that dont need Concentration must not have it. The Concentration mechanic causes a scarcity consciousness, since only one such spell can ever be used at one time. To add Concentration gratuitously would be to turn a spell into a nonchoice, since clearly better Concentration spells would become the only viable choices.

 

[Yaarel]

People always take the Shield spell or use their 3rd level slot on fireball.

So... maybe have a penalty for casting the same spell over and over again?

Like...
Wizards can prepare more spells, but it becomes unprepared after casting.

Or wild magic sorcerer gets a random prepared spell each time they cast.

The Shield spell is balanced for Wizards. The imbalance happens when gishes add the bonus to their already high ACs.

Without checking the math yet, maybe the solution is simple, by saying that the Shield spell cannot stack with an actual shield, including not stacking with magical bonuses from the shield.

Then a gish who has a shield would only had +3 from the spell. If a magical shield, the benefit would be even less.

 

[Yaarel]

Eh? Hypnotic Pattern is a concentration spell. Was someone saying it shouldn't be?

2024 Hypnotic Pattern still has the Concentration requirement.

Heh, honestly, I never got much use out of it. But the optimizer Treantmonk who focuses one battlefield "control" rates the spell very highly.

 

[Mistwell]

Seems the new version of the rules removed the concentration requirement on a fair number of spells which were not being selected due to that restriction.

 

[James Gasik]

Concentration is an important balancing mechanism. It is a blunt tool. But as long as only spells that require it have it, it is valuable to help remedy caster/martial disparity. And it is flavorful enough.

The core rules updated many spells for 2024. A few spells gained Concentration where it was lacking, such as for Forcecage. A few spells lost Concentration that didnt need it, such as Barkskin. There are probably still spells that require future attention.

Finetuning exactly which spells really need Concentration is an excellent way to prevent casters from "layering" too many powerful spell effects simultaneously.

Spells that dont need Concentration must not have it. The Concentration mechanic causes a scarcity consciousness, since only one such spell can ever be used at one time. To add Concentration gratuitously would be to turn a spell into a nonchoice, since clearly better Concentration spells would become the only viable choices.

This does make concentration into a purely arbitrary and gamist mechanic. Which, you know, is fine, if that's the best way to balance problem spells, but there's a lot of people out there who really need the game to make sense "in-universe", so to speak, and the idea that "oh see, this spell requires extra focus because it's...um...effective, while this other spell doesn't because it's...less abusive?" doesn't really make sense from that perspective.

Not that I'm arguing about that, the game is built on these necessary conceits, after all. And it's not like this sort of thing hasn't been done before- the thought just struck me, reading your post.

Personally, I still don't like concentration as a balancing mechanic. If a spell is too powerful for it's level, then I'd rather either A) have it be higher level, legacy be damned, or B), throw it out of the game entirely.

But a lot of people feel that not having the legacy spells makes the game feel like something other than D&D, which is why we're stuck with them.

 

[James Gasik]

2024 Hypnotic Pattern still has the Concentration requirement.

Heh, honestly, I never got much use out of it. But the optimizer Treantmonk who focuses one battlefield "control" rates the spell very highly.

I've used it, and it has it's good and bad points. In 2014, it can function like an AoE banishment- the targets get one save and then they're charmed and unable to do anything for up to 1 minute if concentration is maintained. Sure, a creature can use their action to rouse another, but in this situation, if half the targets save, well, at least half the targets lose their action for a turn, which isn't bad, and it's usually better than that. Plus, if you catch an ally in the area, it's not the worst thing ever.

It's main issue is that a lot of things are immune to being charmed. Compare to slow, which lets you pick your targets, but allows for repeat saves and doesn't actually prevent anyone from acting, though it's hell on multiattack critters and pretty spiffy versus spellcasters (who have a 50% chance for their spells to go off the turn after they are cast- but more importantly, shuts down their reactions). You know they're going to get out of slow in a round or two, but there's a chance that some of the enemies you hit with pattern won't be able to act until their allies are all dead.

That having been said, I usually prepare and cast slow over pattern simply because I don't always know if someone would randomly be immune to it, lol.

 

[Yaarel]

It's main issue is that a lot of things are immune to being charmed.

Sadly, the Mind Blank spell is as powerful than ever.

This spell is arguably the most broken spell in the history of D&D.

 

[Xeviat]

Interesting. Is that in the DMG? Got a page number?

It's in the section on building and adjusting monsters. When calculating offensive CR, you estimate damage dealt for 3 rounds, using limited abilities first, the average for three rounds.

 

[Yaarel]

Personally, I still don't like concentration as a balancing mechanic. If a spell is too powerful for it's level, then I'd rather either A) have it be higher level, legacy be damned, or B), throw it out of the game entirely.

Obviously whether a spell is designated for Concentration or not is strictly gamist − strictly for the sake of mechanical balance. But it is necessary.

The problem isnt any particular spell, the problem is too many spells in effect at the same time, or combos cast in the same round.

For example, Fly is very powerful, but there is nothing broken about it ... by itself.

When Fly is in effect at the same time as many other powerful effects, casters become absurdly powerful compared to martials.