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Is the DM the most important person at the table
- Thread starter aco175
- Start date
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
No. Just the incredibly obvious, in your face ones. If a point would make no sense without that incredibly obvious assumption, you should go ahead and make it.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
A trait that I would hope everyone does. And, yes, I could do that, but, like I posted in your last post, it still doesn't carry to his larger point as he intended it to. So, because it doesn't carry, it was worth showing how the assumption necessary aren't in place so that I could carry that through and show how the assumptions necessary for the larger point are also missing -- the larger point being how D&D being popular is a revealed preference. There, the assumptions necessary aren't assumable unless you're also making large assumptions about people that aren't warranted.
You can continue to defend lowkey as if he cannot do so (he clearly chooses not to, and that's his prerogative) but you're standing on a very narrow point that's only relevant if you ignore the rest of that post. As I noted, even if we do as you suggest, it doesn't help the larger point. If it aids you, I'll concede that you can make assumptions to defend the "joke" about the Cheetos. It doesn't change anything else in my post and it's still worthwhile to list out the assumptions necessary to salvage it. Because, in doing so, we see how many assumptions are necessary to support the D&D "revealed preferences" that the "joke" lead up to and can examine how weak a number of those assumptions are.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
You asked me a question. I answered it.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
You started this side excursion, Max. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to blame me for where we are now when you've been a willing participant right up until it became a challenge.
Hussar
Legend
Well, sure, if you frame it like that, then yeah, it's probably not going to work. Why would you do that though? Why not just ask for court NPC's and then use the ones that the players give you? If one of the players gives you an illusionist, then you can run with the framed plot. Or, even better, maybe the player gave you the DM the framed plot. Which, honestly, is what I was thinking more than having such a rigid plot at the outset. Obviously if we're going to place some of the game prep on the shoulders of the DM, the DM has to be willing to work with what is there.
But, even then, thinking about it, what's wrong with, "The prince is being framed for killing someone. I need you four players to give me four possible suspects."? Wouldn't that be the best use of resources? The DM then picks one, or adjusts and picks and then runs the adventure. No one at the table actually knows who did it. But, now you've got a nice mystery scenario where the players have some information already - although, again, nothing that they "know" is necessarily true.
Again, yes, if you frame things in terms that will automatically fail, then, of course this won't work. That's a bit obvious isn't it? But, if you actually take the time to step back and think about how this can work, I've shown that it can be both a lot of fun for the table and a great way to take the load off the DM's shoulders.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
The bolded portion is exactly what is wrong with it. Framing is dependent on being unknown and then discovered for its enjoyment. If the players know about it ahead of time, it highly colors their thinking and how they play their PCs as the plot unfolds.
What's wrong with it is that it destroys the plot and it's not worth running it at that point.
Depends. If you are running D&D, not it is not the best use of resources. If you are running Joy Killer the RPG, then sure.
What mystery?
DM: "The king calls you in. He says the Prince was arrested for...
Player interrupting: "He was framed for killing someone! Who did he supposedly kill?"
DM: "..."
There's no mystery. The point of a framing scenario is that the players have to discover(or not) the frame and then do something about it(or not).
The above DM/Player interaction is hyperbole and would not play out that way, but the point stands. There is no point in the prince being framed. The mystery in a frame under those conditions is only in which of the 4 suspects other than the prince did the murder, the same as if there was no frame and you had a murder with the same 4 suspects. The "frame" need not be present and has no mystery.
Sadras
Legend
That right there is an example of Player Force. We are gonna need a whole new thread for that.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
You seem to have missed this part.
"The above DM/Player interaction is hyperbole and would not play out that way, but the point stands. There is no point in the prince being framed. The mystery in a frame under those conditions is only in which of the 4 suspects other than the prince did the murder, the same as if there was no frame and you had a murder with the same 4 suspects. The "frame" need not be present and has no mystery."
