D&D 5E Does anyone else feel like the action economy and the way actions work in general in 5e both just suck?

[Charlaquin]

Wait proning an enemy is way too useful to be a bonus action it needs a better cost

Edit : OK too late on that one... Don said it.

So keep that part of shove an action.

 

[Oofta]

Shove as a bonus is great in theory for moving the battlefield around. But isn't the better option usually just to knock people prone?

Wouldn't you just end up with a lot of people knocking each other over all the time and the battle feeling a bit like keystone cops.

Historically, knocking someone prone was a valid tactic. In D&D it depends on the group and level. You're using an attack for a chance to knock someone prone. Yes anyone within 5 ft will have advantage but other ranged attackers will have disadvantage. If you only have two attacks it's a bad trade-off, even with 3 attacks it depends on the math and how many people get advantage.

Of course the DM can always just ask you to not use it all the time if it's annoying.

 

[Garthanos]

So keep that part of shove an action.

I was considering making a shove separate and the target of a shove is given a choice of moving to a location to get a saving throw or staying resisting them movement with a standard save.

OR if Trip action caused an opportunity attack from the target well then having it be a bonus action hmmm could be ok.

 

[Don Durito]

Historically, knocking someone prone was a valid tactic. In D&D it depends on the group and level. You're using an attack for a chance to knock someone prone. Yes anyone within 5 ft will have advantage but other ranged attackers will have disadvantage. If you only have two attacks it's a bad trade-off, even with 3 attacks it depends on the math and how many people get advantage.

Of course the DM can always just ask you to not use it all the time if it's annoying.

But if it's a bonus action it's not an attack.

 

[Garthanos]

Yes anyone within 5 ft will have advantage but other ranged attackers will have disadvantage. If you only have two attacks it's a bad trade-off,

Compare to helping someone make an attack ... (help action)

 

[Oofta]

But if it's a bonus action it's not an attack.

I had a PC with shield master and he'd push enemies around or knock them prone all the time. It was useful, but really didn't make that much of a difference. Getting knocked prone doesn't matter as much as it did in previous editions.

On the other hand, I misread the suggestion that everybody get to do it all the time. I'd have to try it out, it might just be annoying. On the other hand it would give an advantage to strength based characters that they lack.

 

[Garthanos]

Prone really looks like it matters more in 5e than 4e advantage is much bigger and the multi-attacking of fighters can allow the one doing it to exploit it potentially more than once even if it costs an attack.

 

[Don Durito]

I feel like putting pushing and proning into the same action is one of the irritating oversimplifications of 5e. It doesn't have to be 15ft either.

There's two ways I think to square this circle.
1) Add something like 13th Ages Flexible Attacks. So if you roll 16+ on the D20 you can choose to push someone one square, disengage as a free action, allow an adjacent ally to disengage, take the help action for free - stuff along those lines. The disadvantage of this is that like the 13th Age it's wholly dependent on luck. The advantage is it keeps the game moving, and still gives more options then currently exist.

2) Kill the Battlemaster and take it's stuff. Battlemaster maneuvers are now just maneuvers. Everyone just gets tokens equal to their proficiency (or twice their profiency or whatever) They spend one token to use one maneuver ie. pushing attack. Make some of the maneuvers (such as riposte) cost 2 tokens.

 

[Don Durito]

I had a PC with shield master and he'd push enemies around or knock them prone all the time. It was useful, but really didn't make that much of a difference. Getting knocked prone doesn't matter as much as it did in previous editions.

On the other hand, I misread the suggestion that everybody get to do it all the time. I'd have to try it out, it might just be annoying. On the other hand it would give an advantage to strength based characters that they lack.

It's not being overpowered that bothers me so much. It's the ridiculous comical aspect of it happening again and again and again.

 

[Garthanos]

2) Kill the Battlemaster and take it's stuff. Battlemaster maneuvers are now just maneuvers. Everyone just gets tokens equal to their proficiency. They spend one token to use one maneuver ie. pushing attack. Make some of the maneuvers (such as riposte) cost 2 tokens.

LOL you could also just write them up so forgoing an attack is the cost of doing a maneuver. This would affect only those with martial background ofcourse.

I mean grab is already that way too.