D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Zardnaar]

It is the what this thread was supposedly about that is what.

IF the flavor text in the players handbook where without magic adventurers will have it 10x as difficult then that is indeed true it is completely different and utterly not what I want.

Also You keep using that word... .insert the quote from princess bride.

Powers are not a play style sheesh.

Powers enable the 4E playstyle. That's the whole skirmisher/tactical thing.

The formatting of the powers being samey is an issue for a lot of people. I don't think it's the primary problem but it is eyes glaze over reading it.

Some classes to the same thing over and over. 4E was comparatively homogenous the powers were kinda different but read samey.

 

[Garthanos]

Powers enable the 4E playstyle. That's the whole skirmisher/tactical thing.

Entirely possible to have that without it being packaged the same just as the Grab and Strike and Grapple by trading out an extra attack are the same functional ability. Everyone has the Rangers Twin Strike ability in 5e they are completely different LOL.

 

[Garthanos]

I almost think if the 4e fighter as renamed the knight and the 4e ranger was renamed the scout, half of the samyness arguments would go away. Because there would be less tradition in the names.

Call the parent class a Fighter. IE martial == fighter.
They would still be complaining about the Scout ( Rogue ) being a fighter type though.

 

[Garthanos]

The formatting of the powers being samey is an issue for a lot of people.

This I do not dispute few people do.

 

[pemerton]

As far as rituals go, my players, in three of play, never once performed one once.

some of my players couldn't handle all the powers. I had one girl who never bothered to use any of her encounter or daily powers because keeping track of them was too much work. She was also playing a druid.

If players can't keep track of encounter or daily powers, but can keep track of spells in AD&D or 5e, then there is something at work that I don't get.

Likewise, if players routinely use spells in AD&D or 5e, but don't use rituals in 4e, again I don't get this.

I'm not saying it didn't happen! I fully believe your posts. I just don't understand what's going on here with player preference and cognition.

I remember thinking the same thing, but I guess when skill challenges were the designed mechanic to handle non-trivial exploration events, then a bonus to skills effectively ended up being the "exploration-based" feats.

Both the DMG and (moreso) the DMG 2 talk about using powers to buff checks in the context of a skill challenge. This was fairly common in my 4e play, just like using rituals was, but maybe our table was unusual?

 

[Minigiant]

Powers enable the 4E playstyle. That's the whole skirmisher/tactical thing.

Actually...

By having all the classes use the same AEDU system, theDM could run many different play styles.

Since everyone had the same structure,you could easily jump from 1 fight a day to 6 to 10 to 0 and not worry about balance. Many a urban adventures when I played 4e was just everyone nuking would be assassins with dailies and everyone feeling equal.

 

[Garthanos]

Many a urban adventures when I played 4e was just everyone nuking would be assassins with dailies and everyone feeling equal.

Sounds fun... was there also murder mystery skill challenges at large.

 

[Don Durito]

Look Wildshape is a pain in 5e and in 3.X was effing broken and arguably D&D would be better off without it at all, but because it is so difficult to implement it does demonstrate the difference between the two editions.

4E Wildshape:

Wild shape is a druid at-will utility power. Wild shape allows a character to change between humanoid form and beast form. While in beast form, a character can use powers with the beast form keyword, but cannot use weapon or implement attacks lacking the beast form keyword.[PH2:84]

5e Wildshape

Starting at 2nd Level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before. You can use this feature twice. You regain expended uses when you finish a short or Long Rest.

Your druid level determines the Beasts you can transform into, as shown in the Beast Shapes table. At 2nd Level, for example, you can transform into any beast that has a Challenge rating of 1/4 or lower that doesn't have a flying or swimming speed.

Table: Beast Shapes

Level	Max. CR	Limitations	Example
2nd	1/4	No flying or swimming speed	Wolf
4th	1/2	No flying speed	Crocodile
8th	1	—	Giant Eagle

You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down). You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a Bonus Action on Your Turn. You automatically revert if you fall Unconscious, drop to 0 Hit Points, or die.

While you are transformed, the following rules apply:

• Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the beast, but you retain your Alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw Proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or Lair Actions, you can't use them.
• When you transform, you assume the beast's Hit Points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of Hit Points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of Dropping to 0 Hit Points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 Hit Points, you aren't knocked Unconscious.
• You can't cast Spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn't break your Concentration on a spell you've already cast, however, or prevent you from taking Actions that are part of a spell, such as Call Lightning, that you've already cast.
• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your Special Senses, such as Darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
• You choose whether your Equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn Equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of Equipment, based on the creature's shape and size. Your Equipment doesn't change size or shape to match the new form, and any Equipment that the new form can't wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.

In a sense both offer the same choice (turn into any animal), but 5e makes an effort to make this choice mechanically meaningful, both in the mechanically differentiated animals and in the correspondence to game world animals and wildshape (from a certain perspective it feels like you more meaningfully change shape). 4E focuses on balance first, and then allows some ability to customise the animal through power selection, but its much more nebulous. You can change from Ape to bear, to cat, to wolf, to bird (although you can't actually fly) many more times than the 5e character has but you can't do a lot to leverage that as by itself your abilities don't change (hence no flying until - is it level 10 when there's a daily abiity that gives you a lasting fly speed?) and so there's not a lot of ways to meaningfully leverage that change. You might be lucky and be able to convince the GM that if you're a dog you don't need to make a stealth roll because well...you're a dog, but that's purely GM judgement call.

The 4E method is more balanced, because wildshape is problematic, and it means the rogue can't be overshadowed by a druid turning into a monkey, but it does say something about the different priorities of different editions.

 

[NotAYakk]

So the effects for Martial-types are less similar that they are in 5e. But the mechanics are more similar.

5e:
Fighter: swing weapon, lots. Each swing is basic, but you get more.
Barbarian: decide if to rage. Decide if to reckless. Must attack (even if pointless) to maintain rage. Then swing.
Ranger: Use spell slot (daily) to mark. Then attack with damage boost per tap. Sometimes cast daily spells for super attack.
Paladin: After hit, decide if you smite. Maybe wait for a crit. Can also pre-smite, or longer term buff.
Rogue: Fish for 1 hit to deliver sneak dice. Fish for reaction attack to double it. Pick between 2nd swing or maneuver out of danger.
Monk: Tap lots at cost of Ki. Force lots of cheap saves vs stun on bosses. Can give up offence for defence (dodge as bonus, or 2 unarmed attacks).

The effect (mostly damage, tiny riders mostly if anything) is the same, but the decision points are different. With the Paladin, deciding to burn a (daily) resource (after) you hit is different than a BM fighter burning AS before she swings, then BM (encounter) resources after she hits.

Both did 50 damage and nothing else. So very samey. But the levers they pulled to do that damage where arranged differently.

You can see the start of this in 4E essentials, with the power attack powers and stances. They where more samey in effect than 4e PHB1 powers, but they moved the point-of-decision around.

To many the point of decision isn't important. They plan their stance based on how they want to attack, and pre-plan any riders sfter the hit. But to others that different point of decision is huge.

 

[Garthanos]

By having all the classes use the same AEDU system, theDM could run many different play styles.

Giving all classes novas like the Paladins only arbitrarily different that gets a long ways closer.