D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[FrogReaver]

The Champion is supposed to be simple with rolling attack, damage, and healing rolls for beginners, drop ins, and extreme roleplayers

Let them double their Ability mod to weapon damage.

Quickly outshines battle masters that way

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm getting ready to start a new campaign tomorrow (tomorrow is session 0), converting a 3E adventure to 5E, and as I'm want to do playing always gets me looking at player options and wanting to try balancing them better. In doing a little prepwork before working on a Barbarian rewrite (I want to steal some ideas from Pathfinder 2's Barbarian and not have the barbarian have uses of rage, because it feels weird for a barbarian to conserve rages; I always imagine a barbarian in a tophat and monocle).

So, that aside, I've come back to the Champion. Jeeze, where do I begin. I feel like the general consensus is that it's weak, but not like super weak.

Here's the damage progression for the Battle Master (x3 for 2 short rests and 1 long rest per day), just using the basic maneuvers. This doesn't take into account the other riders, or that reposte or precision attack could add more damage. We're just getting a baseline.

Level	Battle Master
3	4d8 (18) x3 = 54 Student of War
4	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
5	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
6	4d8 (18) x3 = 54
7	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5 Know Your Enemy
8	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5
9	5d8 (22.5) x3 = 67.5
10	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
11	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
12	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
13	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
14	5d10 (27.5) x3 = 82.5
15	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5 Relentless
16	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5
17	7d10 (38.5) x3 = 115.5
18	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5
19	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5
20	7d12 (45.5) x3 = 136.5

Without posting a full table, you can see it will take a lot of critical hits to add up to the Battle Master's extra damage. Luckily, that's like most of the battle Master's class, just their maneuvers, while the Champion gets a second fighting style (+1 AC seems like the safe option) and regeneration when bloodied below half-hp.

When comparing the Champion's damage to the Battle Master's damage (when the battle master is just putting all their dice into simple maneuvers and doesn't care about the effects of the riders), spreading their dice over 2 encounters per short rest, the Champion behind the battle master in damage. This is across a 3 round combat, assuming action surge is being split across 2 combats, the standard white room stuff. OH, and this is putting a greatsword in the champion and battle master's hands, to make the most of the higher crit (it would be further behind if using a smaller die).

Level	Difference
3	-7.5 (79%)
4	-7.5 (80%)
5	-6 (91%)
6	-6 (91%)
7	-8.3 (88%)
8	-8.3 (89%)
9	-8.3 (89%)
10	-10.8 (86%)
11	-9.4 (91%)
12	-9.4 (91%)
13	-9.4 (91%)
14	-9.4 (91%)
15	-10.5 (91%)
16	-10.5 (91%)
17	-9.3 (93%)
18	-12.8 (90%)
19	-12.8 (90%)
20	-9.4 (94%)

I'm not as concerned at 10th level and above, because the Champion can get a +1 AC bonus there (though someone could pick up, a ranged style to compliment their main style, or have defensive and protector) and it becomes more difficult to compare (Interestingly, I did a little side comparison for what if crits were just x2 damage, instead of only the dice, and it reduced the gap a bit; highest spike was at 10th level at -9.1, BUT 20th level was -1.4! The percentages also stay above 90% except at 3, 4, and 10)

As I was looking at the Battle Master, I put it side by side against the Eldritch Knight. I pretended the EK had a Smite ability as a way of simply valuing their spell slots. The BM ends up starting WAY higher than the EK up until 7th level, the EK runs only a little behind from 7th through 12th level, and then the EK stays ahead except at levels 15 and 18. The EK gets extra features other than their spell slots, and they can't actually Smite, but it was an interesting comparison.

It made me wonder if part of the solution to buffing the champion might mean nerfing the battle master from 3rd through 6th levels, and then maybe giving them some other features at higher levels to compare to the champion's 10th and 18th level features.

What are your thoughts?

Unless the BM feels really really powerful at your table, I wouldn’t use a nerf to bring them in line. The Champion is a little weak compared to comparable characters of other classes, too. So, what’s the math difference on the following;

level 3, you reroll damage dice that show a result of 2 or lower, until the die shows a result higher than 2.

level 7, you add your proficiency modifier to damage with weapon attacks.

level 10, you deal extra damage on a crit equal to your fighter level.

simple, easy to remember, just boost the damage per round average at 3, then damage per hit at 7, and a juicy feeling but not over the top boost to crits at 10.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think double the effect of fighting style for champions.

Duelist = +4 dmg
Defense = +2 AC
Archery = +4 attack
GWF = reroll 1-4

Any concerns?

 

[Minigiant]

Quickly outshines battle masters that way

In damage, sure.
But thats all champions do. Smash faces and shoot chests for damage.

 

[fearsomepirate]

If you want a simple bump to Champions, and I will repeat I don't think they need one, increase their crit range by one at 9th level.

 

[FrogReaver]

If you want a simple bump to Champions, and I will repeat I don't think they need one, increase their crit range by one at 9th level.

They need a big bump. They are one of weakest classes level 1-9.

 

[Xeviat]

@Xeviat did you take into account when the BM rolls a critical hit the superiority dice are doubled as well?

I did not, because I couldn't figure out a good way to do it. Saving them for crits runs the risk of not using them. So, like, maybe the damage could be increased by 7.7% assuming the 5% crit on a 65% hit chance? That pushes the champion further back.

Are you taking into account BattleMaster short rests?

When comparing Battle Master to Eldritch Knight, yes. For Champion, I'm taking Battle Master Superiority dice, used solely for added damage on a hit, and dividing it by 2 (2 short rests per long rest, 6-8 encounters per day, so assuming 2 encounters per rest) and 3 rounds of combat.

The reason I'm thinking about a nerf on low level Battle Masters is getting 4 dice at 3rd level on a short rest resource feels like a lot. It's way more power than the EK gets, but at least they get attack cantrips and that has potential to be able to exploit damage vulnerabilities and all that. But just looking at 4d8 extra damage, a longsword champion fighter would have to crit 4 extra times over the course of a short rest to match that damage, and that's just not going to happen.

The Arcane Archer, though, is balanced around the Battle Master's 4d8 damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

In damage, sure.
But thats all champions do. Smash faces and shoot chests for damage.

It's pretty much all battlemasters do too and Barbarians and Rangers and even most paladins. It puts such a champion head and shoulders above all them.

 

[Don Durito]

How about use the proficiency dice variant for the Champion and then let them add that dice to their damage as well.

We've now gone from 60% Dungeon Crawls Classic Warrior to around 75%. Let that proficiency die function as a Deed die as well and we've gone most of the rest of the way.

 

[FrogReaver]

I did not, because I couldn't figure out a good way to do it. Saving them for crits runs the risk of not using them. So, like, maybe the damage could be increased by 7.7% assuming the 5% crit on a 65% hit chance? That pushes the champion further back.



When comparing Battle Master to Eldritch Knight, yes. For Champion, I'm taking Battle Master Superiority dice, used solely for added damage on a hit, and dividing it by 2 (2 short rests per long rest, 6-8 encounters per day, so assuming 2 encounters per rest) and 3 rounds of combat.

The reason I'm thinking about a nerf on low level Battle Masters is getting 4 dice at 3rd level on a short rest resource feels like a lot. It's way more power than the EK gets, but at least they get attack cantrips and that has potential to be able to exploit damage vulnerabilities and all that. But just looking at 4d8 extra damage, a longsword champion fighter would have to crit 4 extra times over the course of a short rest to match that damage, and that's just not going to happen.

The Arcane Archer, though, is balanced around the Battle Master's 4d8 damage.

I think if you lower the number of superiority dice that battlemasters may stop being worth playing over barbarians or paladins or maybe even rangers.