D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

I can. The same ability among several classes can(not necessarily will) add the the feel of sameyness among classes.

Yes and though marking is common the classes each modified marking by other elements to be more distinct than the appearance of commonality makes them. Class features make marking distinct and Feats and other elements of the leader classes often make their healing words different beyond the baseline.
So yes categorization which makes similar things in the same selection box makes them more similar.
Can we use the word similar instead?

 

[Aldarc]

Maybe the assertion just shouldn't be made in the first place then... because yeah if you make a broad accusation, people are going to ask for some proof of its validity.

You mean like asserting that 4e powers are the "samey"? This goes back to the original point that I made. My issue has more to do with the equivocation between the subjective opinion and the objective assertion. I do think that you have explained yourself well enough regarding your opinions surrounding 4e powers.

I'm not asking you to comb the thread. You made the assertion, so you already know them. If you don't know them and are just guessing, then it's a baseless assertion.

It's not as if I have been making a list and keeping track of the names, Max, so it would require me to go back and waste my time.

I'll make this easy for you then. Have you seen anyone make the claim that their feelings on sameyness is a fact? Yes or no. No names. No ugliness.

This is not what I said. Perhaps you should reread my statement. But having to go through this all again is a pretty good demonstration of why your question is a giant time waster. Good day, Max. I will not engage your demand for names any further, and I suggest that you do likewise.

 

[Garthanos]

In order for Grab and Strike to be dissimilar once you sort through the fact that it is packaged differently in 5e (a presentation difference) you can even soup it up with a feat. Now 4e provides way more of this and class features that modify more but 5e does some of the same. I do not feel that happens nearly nearly enough in 5e and the feats do not seem to do the work as well. And class features seem to run stand alone in 5e, why isn't the protection style written to work better with Sentinel and similarly the Cavalier class? This might be a side effect of feats being optional... but unlike using extra attack enhancing the everyman power which is elegant the other modifying elements are kludgy. The style feats modifying powers in 4e were presented very hard to find too a different form of not good.

 

[Maxperson]

It's not as if I have been making a list and keeping track of the names, Max, so it would require me to go back and waste my time.

I asked a simple yes or no question. Have you seen anyone on the side of 4e powers feel samey to them assert that their feelings are facts? Yes or no?

 

[Imaro]

You mean like asserting that 4e powers are the "samey"? This goes back to the original point that I made. My issue has more to do with the equivocation between the subjective opinion and the objective assertion. I do think that you have explained yourself well enough regarding your opinions surrounding 4e powers.

But claiming that people have stated their opinions as fact can be objectively proven with a single post doing such. I don't think whether powers are "samey" can be.

 

[Hussar]

I think they are just presenting that argument badly.

I have complained that 4e defenders sharing a marking mechanic makes them samey. The same mechanic across different classes does add to sameyness on the cross class level. I'm willing to acknowledge that. Are you?

However, to answer the criticism. 5e's differentiation of Barbarians/Rangers/Fighters/Monks/Paladin's primarily comes through in their level 1-3 class abilities. To me that's a much larger differentiation than 4e provided them, at least in the general sense (can always cherry pick a few powers that may be sufficiently different - but that's the exception not the norm) - which is why to me 5e feels much less samey than 4e.

But, doesn't that lead into what I was saying - that many of the things that 4e would present as "powers" are simply rolled into a single entry and thus, in 5e, it makes the classes look more differentiated?

After all, by level 3, what actually differentiates a fighter from a paladin or a ranger? They have the same armor, same weapons, same fighting styles. A paladin has lay on hands and 2 spells per day and a ranger has nature sense and 2 spells per day. Our fighter has Second Wind and Action Surge.

In play, round by round, those three characters are going to be doing a LOT of the same things over and over again. Yes, there will be a few rounds they might be different, but, overall? Most of the rounds in combat, they won't do anything different at all.

Never minding the first three levels of full casters. It's entirely possible to make two different classed casters have exactly the same spells.

I'm having a pretty big difficulty understanding this. The difference between 2 level 3 4e characters is considerably larger than the difference between 2 level 3 5e characters simply by virtue of the fact that those two 4e characters each have a choice of about 30 different powers by 3rd level. The odds of those two characters looking anything alike is actually pretty slim unless it's intentional.

 

[Aldarc]

I asked a simple yes or no question. Have you seen anyone on the side of 4e powers feel samey to them assert that their feelings are facts? Yes or no?

And I told you that your question is rooted in a strawman. Asking it again does not make it less of one.

But claiming that people have stated their opinions as fact can be objectively proven with a single post doing such. I don't think whether powers are "samey" can be.

And I told Max that I have no interest in dragging names through mud and debating this matter. Do I believe that people have made such assertions? Sure. But am I interested in digging up dirt? No. Waste of time that does nothing for this thread. I would appreciate it if you would respect my desire to drop this fruitless inquiry.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes and though marking is common the classes each modified marking by other elements to be more distinct than the appearance of commonality makes them. Class features make marking distinct and Feats and other elements of the leader classes often make their healing words different beyond the baseline.
So yes categorization which makes similar things in the same selection box makes them more similar.
Can we use the word similar instead?

I don't know that similar works. Similar is more objective than samey. Samey very much implies feelings and subjectiveness. With similar, you can compare traits and come to a conclusion of similarity. There is still a measure of subjectiveness to similarity, but it's not nearly as pronounced as samey.

For example, with marbles you have various types. Marbles, boulders, jumbos, etc. based on size.

With samey, I can say that 10 glass marbles(5e level of sameyness for me) has a lot less than 10 glass boulders(4e level of sameyness for me). It's about how much one feels over the other. I can point to some things that make them feel that way for me, but those same things might not evoke the same feeling in you.

With similarity you are looking closer at the factual components. 10 glass marbles are all glass and round. 10 glass boulders are all glass and round. You might even be able to compare colors. Then you can conclude that 10 glass marbles are similar to 10 glass boulders. Those fact should be the same for both you and me, unlike the feelings above.

It would be hard for me to argue that they aren't similar, where with samey I can indeed argue that despite looking at the same facts, I feel one edition is much more samey to me than the other.

 

[Maxperson]

And I told you that your question is rooted in a strawman. Asking it again does not make it less of one.

Where did I attribute to you an argument that you didn't make? You made that claim. I asked you to back it up.

At this point it's blatantly obvious that you are just evading, which tells me that you don't have anything to back up your claim. If you can't even answer a yes or no about it, you haven't seen anyone do it.

 

[lowkey13]

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