D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

I don't know that similar works. Similar is more objective than samey. Samey very much implies feelings and subjectiveness. With similar, you can compare traits and come to a conclusion of similarity. There is still a measure of subjectiveness to similarity, but it's not nearly as pronounced as samey.

correct but that "objectiveness" is easier to analyze because of that. Yes powers can often be more similar than 3e spells ... partly because 4e puts more dissimilar spells into rituals. Now once you start deciding to complain using extra attack to make another attack is almost always (because of the raw ubiquity of focus firing) the same as having a twin strike power and using it grab and strike is almost always like having a grab and strike you see that the difference is packaging and yes intentional classification difference. 4e actively tried to package similar things together.

 

[Garthanos]

4e actively tried to package similar things together.

The value of which was supposed to be I think make it easier to compare but has the opposite effect for many people who then see them as still too much the same.

 

[Maxperson]

correct but that objectiveness is easier to analyze because of that.

Sure, but so what. We are discussing the feeling of sameyness, not similarity. One is not the other and you can't just shift the conversation over to something different in the middle. Perhaps you should start a thread on how 4e is similar to 5e and vise versa.

 

[Garthanos]

Sure, but so what. We are discussing the feeling of sameyness, not similarity.

Sameyness == so similar I have problems differentiation how can you talk about it in any real way without talking about similarity

And sure it does seem to imply dislike

 

[Umbran]

We are discussing ...

Dude. The thread is over 50 pages long. You are collectively discussing a whole bunch of things.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm having a pretty big difficulty understanding this. The difference between 2 level 3 4e characters is considerably larger than the difference between 2 level 3 5e characters simply by virtue of the fact that those two 4e characters each have a choice of about 30 different powers by 3rd level. The odds of those two characters looking anything alike is actually pretty slim unless it's intentional.

One of the things that I think that @lowkey13 to their credit has been pointing out is how statistically similar things can have different psychological effects in people. Having a +X bonus may be statistically the same, for example, as Advantage, but rolling two dice and taking the higher one is often more psychologically rewarding. That's also likely one reason why Advantage/Disadvantage has become more pervasive in a lot of other games post-5e. More dice. More randomness. More surprise. This may be presentation, but it's also about psychologically rewarding systems of play. Though I think that Advantage/Disadvantage is too pervasive in 5e, I at least appreciate that the player-side desire to gain advantage feels psychologically rewarding.

 

[Maxperson]

Sameyness == so similar I have problems differentiation how can you talk about it in any real way without talking about similarity

And sure it does seem to imply dislike

Because similarity isn't the issue. 4e has AC that goes very high. 5e has AC the doesn't go anywhere near as high. They are similar in that they both have AC. That doesn't trigger any feeling of sameyness in the editions for me. Similarity and samey are two different things.

 

[Garthanos]

If you dislike paying attention to distinctions below a certain level sure but someone can point out those similarities below that same level existed but were package differently in other editions. One can still discuss how those distinctions resulted in those similarities being presented side by side and being more obvious. Shrug discussing pure opinion is kind of less than useful unless you branch into hows and whys

 

[Garthanos]

One of the things that I think that @lowkey13 to their credit has been pointing out is how statistically similar things can have different psychological effects in people.

Even functionally identical ones like grab and strike being presented as one isolated power gets called a spell but split up is peachie keen.

 

[Garthanos]

Because similarity isn't the issue.

Sure it is you said it yourself it isn't being the same its being only similar. Similarity with subtler distinctions is indeed the issue, plus packaging and presentation so that the similarity is obvious instead of obfuscated;