D&D 3E/3.5 Multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

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Meanwhile, the barbarian-cleric I ran in the RPGA never gained a 2nd level in barbarian. Giving up cleric spells would have been too high a price to pay, and in fact the one level of barbarian that I had given this character was a nod to style and a tactical mistake. (Arguably playing anything other than a full-on cleric in 3rd Ed RPGA games was a mistake.) The Third Ed version of multiclassing “worked” in that you could mix and match as you pleased, but it didn’t really work in that most combinations were a mess. Multiclassing rules are a bitch.

When we started design on 3rd Ed, we knew that multiclassing would be an issue. The earliest takes were basically classes that combined the traits of two base classes, with a slightly steeper XP curve for leveling up. Theoretically, this system is like the Elf class in Red Box. The approach was solid in that it would have let us balance each “multiclasses” like we balanced the base classes. But this system seemed too limited for our purposes. Third Ed was about busting open limits, and combo class system seemed to make multiclassing more restricted than before. Today, after seeing the “mix-and-match” system in play for 20 years, I wonder whether we might have done better by developing that original system.

As it is, we got pretty far in the design process without solving the multiclass problem. In the end, I proposed more or less the current system, with levels from different classes stacking benefits on top of each other. The best thing about the system, I figure, was the concept of prestige classes. They were basically “multiclass only” classes. The prestige class concept was pretty exciting and made all sorts of interesting designs possible. And the beauty of the “libertarian” approach is that it required almost no work to balance. It wasn’t balanced.

One of the guiding tenets of the 3rd Ed design was “consequence, not restrictions.” It meant that we wouldn’t tell you that you can’t play a halforc paladin. Now halforcs have a Charisma penalty, so there will be consequences, but you can do what you want. This approach can be something of a disaster when it comes to making permanent choices about your character. And with the “anything goes” rules for multiclassing, there were more ways to build a weak character than to build a strong one.

On some level, balanced, anything-goes multiclassing rules are systemically impossible, and here’s a thought experiment to help you see what I mean. Suppose that the game designers hand-balance the base classes so that they play well next to each other. These base classes have the right power level and that right number of options: not too many or too few. That’s where you want the classes to be. Now imagine that you add on an algorithmic system for taking any two of those classes and combining them in any combination of levels. Maybe throw in a couple extra classes, up to as many classes as you have levels. What sort of “class” are you going to end up with when you combine different classes into one? The ideal result is that the character has more options balanced against less overall power. In addition, the increase in the number of options has to be modest enough that the player doesn’t get burdened by having too many. If you hit that ideal sweet spot that balances power with options, you’re lucky. Most combinations, especially with spellcasters, come with too harsh a penalty for the benefit. For others, like the fighter-ranger-barbarians, there was an increase not only versatility but also in effectiveness.

The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined. With this “wild west” or “libertarian” approach to multiclassing, combinations are bound to vary from weaker to stronger depending on how well the classes line up. Two classes that rely on Strength and Dexterity, like fighter and ranger combo up pretty well. But what about a Strength-based, heavily armored class with an Intelligence-based class with spellcaster that’s penalized for wearing armor? Any system that makes the fighter-ranger OK is going to be hard going for the fighter-wizard. If the game designers balance the system to makes the fighter-wizard OK, then the fighter-ranger is too strong. Those two combinations are quite different, so using the same rules for both of them leads to imbalance somewhere in the system.

To complicate things further, there were countless ways to combine two classes. If the fighter-1/wizard-9 is balanced, can the fighter-5/wizard-5 be balanced, and the fighter-9/wizard-1? Not really. There are so many multiclass options that inevitably most of them are going to be too strong or, more likely, too weak.

One problem with multiclassing is that classes came front-loaded with lots of great stuff at 1st level. If you’re a barbarian, the reasoning went, you want to be able to rage at 1st level. We toyed with the idea of giving each class a special feature that only single-class characters would get, but it was a new idea and it would have taken lots of work to get right, and we passed.

For 4th Edition, an overarching goal was to prevent players from making choices that led to them being disappointed. They headed off the problem of multiclass characters by not allowing regular multiclassing. A fighter could pick up some bits from the wizard class, and you could play a class built from scratch to be an arcane spellcasting warrior, but you couldn’t give yourself a bad experience by building a fighter-5/wizard-5.

For 13th Age, Rob and I forced a solution. For one thing, the rules support only an even split between two classes, reducing the complexity by at least two-thirds. The rules ended up somewhat resembling the AD&D multiclass rules, combining reduced-power versions of two classes. We also force every class/class combination to care equally about two different abilities. That way there’s no natural advantage for a combination of two classes with the same main ability, such as the bard-sorcerer, who needs Dex as much as Cha. Each class-class combination also got hand-balanced with power possibly adjusted up or down and special rules provided when necessary.

Fifth edition gets a lot of things right. It has some forms of “multiclassing” built into the classes, such as the fighter’s eldritch knight option, which is a nice touch and easy to balance. Fifth Ed also returns to the mix-and-match system, but they plug a lot of holes when they do. Many rules contribute to a smoother multiclassing system: ability minimums, limited proficiencies, more generous spellcasting, classes getting cool stuff at 2nd level, and the universal proficiency bonus. These concise, useful rules obviously come from people who played the hell out of 3rd Ed and knew exactly what was wrong with multiclassing. Even so, the various combinations all are going to work more or less well, and only some of those combinations can be balanced right. Spellcasters still lose out on their most powerful spellcasting levels, making it painful to multiclass with a non-casting class. Multiclass rules are a pain to design.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

dave2008

Legend
PF2's system is probably my current favorite published system for generating stats. It has racial penalties and racial bonuses for those who like them but doesn't make any race (ancestry) choice bad for any class. Lots of customizability but you can always get your main stat high enough.
I will have to go back and look, I didn't remember anything new about PF2e stat generation, but I haven't looked at the book in months.

EDIT: OK, his system is basically PF2e with culture added.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
D&D isn't just about power curves, it is also about roleplaying.

Then you shouldn't be against a quick dip if it's roleplay appropriate. An Eldritch Knight just isn't a Fighter/Wizard. The Eldritch Knight is a specific concept that precludes other Fighter/Wizard concepts.

IMHO, Multi-classing should be a roleplay choice, not a munchkin tactic. Sure Min/Maxing is one style of play, but it doesn't really matter much where you draw the line, so long as the line is in the same spot for everyone.

Given that you can self-regulate and that not every quick dip is for "munchkin" or "min/max" purposes, that line should be drawn where it is. If you don't want to "munchkin" or "min/max," then don't. Others enjoy that style of play and it should be open to them.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I will have to go back and look, I didn't remember anything new about PF2e stat generation, but I haven't looked at the book in months.

EDIT: OK, his system is basically PF2e with culture added.
Simplified version:

1) Start with all 10s.
2) Everything gives you a boost. A boost is a +2 to one stat until you get to 18.
3) Your ancestry (race) gives you a boost to two fixed stats, a penalty (-2) to one fixed stat, and a free boost to any stat that didn't already get a boost. Humans get 2 free boosts and no penalties.
4) Your background gives you a fixed boost and a free boost.
5) Your class gives you a boost to the main stat of the class. (It tells you what that is.)
6) To finalize, you get four extra boosts to 4 different stats.
 

dave2008

Legend
Simplified version:

1) Start with all 10s.
2) Everything gives you a boost. A boost is a +2 to one stat until you get to 18.
3) Your ancestry (race) gives you a boost to two fixed stats, a penalty (-2) to one fixed stat, and a free boost to any stat that didn't already get a boost. Humans get 2 free boosts and no penalties.
4) Your background gives you a fixed boost and a free boost.
5) Your class gives you a boost to the main stat of the class. (It tells you what that is.)
6) To finalize, you get four extra boosts to 4 different stats.
Yes, that is the PF2e system. PF2e also has a rolled option, but it doesn't quite work with the full race, class, background modifiers. I would like to find a rolled / point-but system that works with the modifiers provided by race, class, background, and culture (per @Undrave).
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Yes, that is the PF2e system. PF2e also has a rolled option, but it doesn't quite work with the full race, class, background modifiers. I would like to find a rolled / point-but system that works with the modifiers provided by race, class, background, and culture (per @Undrave).
Probably the biggest question for any random stat generation method is: Do you want the method to drive your character generation (like I rolled a 17 in Intelligence, I should play a wizard) or just to provide some organic changes to your already determined concept?
 

Hurin70

Adventurer
Which, (to me), is more of an indictment of the Subclass, and the Warlock class in general, than of 5e multi-classing...

On first read, I thought the 5e Warlock intriguing, but overtime realized the designers had, alas, fornicated with canines, (🦮🍆) in it’s initial design, and in their correction to the Pact of the Blade thru the Hexblade subclass...

To me that indicates, the system is overall stable, with one major anomaly.

Yes, you make a good point. I think the designers just kind of jumped off the deep end with the Hexblade.
 


dave2008

Legend
Probably the biggest question for any random stat generation method is: Do you want the method to drive your character generation (like I rolled a 17 in Intelligence, I should play a wizard) or just to provide some organic changes to your already determined concept?
I want it to be: I rolled a 17 in Intelligence and can play any class I want. Though to be honest I never roll in order, so where you put that 17 becomes part of your concept.

Also, I am think that the highest you could roll in my system would be a 16 (maybe lower). Race, culture, background, and class could then push that up.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I want it to be: I rolled a 17 in Intelligence and can play any class I want. Though to be honest I never roll in order, so where you put that 17 becomes part of your concept.

I have my players roll in order, but allow them to swap a pair of stats, so that they can play the class that they want.
 

Undrave

Legend
That helps, but doesn't solve the issue, IMO. I still prefer your approach to be layered on top of a stat generation system. So that it augments your stats, not supplants them. You are providing more choice, which is great, but you have eliminated the random and eliminated the chance for crazy good stats. I still want the option of the character with better (or worse) stats just because of luck (nature). I want the option of playing a character that doesn't have the ideal stats for his/her class, not because I chose it, but because that is what dice (fate/nature) determined and I have to struggle against it. I guess I just want some random in my stat generation.

Every D&D-like game has to provide a random option and a non-random option. Most players have a strong preference for one or the other, and there's no real compromise option that can be reached.

Haha, yeah I don't like random stats, but I guess I'm willing to compromise a way to have both...

Also, on my wish list would be to keep the full stats (not just modifiers), but to make each stat point important. I haven't thought it through, but something like an 18 would be a +8, not a +4. So each point above the baseline gives you some improvement. I have also thought about providing benefits for higher stats that are not just modifier bonuses, so maybe every even provides an additional +1 modifier, but every odd number provides a different benefit (may increase damage dice or something). Like I said, I haven't given it a lot of thought.

Heh, I'm still not convinced we need the full scores. The only thing in 5e is the distance in feet you can jump and I think the ammount of weight you can carry is calculated on your Strength score? The biggest difference is when you end up with two odd scores and then bumped both up a Modifier point by assigining your ASI to the two of them.

In a system with highly controlled stat gain, the difference between even and odd scores just doesn't mean much.

What @Undrave is suggesting is different and interesting. It is not random, but it is also not point-buy. I will call it feature based stats. The stats are generate solely by your selection of character "features" (class, race, background, & culture). There is no rolling or point-buy.

What I am proposing is a more traditional method of stat generation (rolling or point-buy) and the adding Undrave's idea on top of that. So you roll or buy your stats, then your stats are adjusted by your choice of race, class, background, and culture. I think the marriage sounds great.

I kinda wanted the system to also ditch the math involved with point buy so maybe we could combine a basic standard array wth rolled stats?

Oooh! I got it!

How about we make it so, if you want to used roll stats you keep the ability score, but if you don't you just go straight for the modifier bonuses?

Basically you roll your stats a certain way (probably 3D6 but you reroll the 1s?) THEN all the +1s and +2 build up your stats on top of your lower score so their impact is still there but less impactful?

Let's imagine a combination of Race/Culture/Background/Class that ends up with my non-random character with those modifiers (with technical score in parenthesis) :

STR +4 (18), CON +1 (12), INT +1 (12), DEX 0 (10), WIS +2 (14), CHA -1 (8), Total: +7

Then I rolled stats a few times as I suggested above and applied the same bonuses and I got

STR 17 (+3), CON 12 (+1), INT 8 (-1), DEX 10 (0), WIS 13 (+1), CHA 8 (-1), Total: +5
STR 19 (+4), CON 12 (+1), INT 8 (-1), DEX 10 (0), WIS 12 (+1), CHA +8 (-1), Total: +6
STR 18 (+4), CON 16 (+3), INT 8 (-1), DEX 12 (+1), WIS 16 (+3), CHA 9 (-1), Total: +9
STR 16 (+3), CON 14 (+2), INT 14 (+2), DEX 10 (0), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 12 (+1), Total: +10
STR 19 (+4), CON 14 (+2), INT 12 (+1), DEX 12 (+1), WIS 12 (+1), CHA 10 (0), Total: +9
STR 20 (+5), CON 14 (+2), INT 10 (0), DEX 10 (0), WIS 16 (+3), CHA 10 (0), Total: +10

So that's a tendency to be TOO strong compared to generated, so I went and rolled without rerolling the 1s and I got

STR 18 (+4), CON 12 (+1), INT 10 (0), DEX 12 (+1), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 8 (-1), Total: +7
STR 18 (+4), CON 14 (+2), INT 14 (+2), DEX 10 (0), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 8 (-1), Total: +9
STR 20 (+5), CON 14 (+2), INT 15 (+2), DEX 14 (+2), WIS 7 (-2), CHA 7 (-2), Total: +7

Better but more swingy... Still work to be done but I think a little tweaking it could work.

Oh yea, Undrave's system (which I think was mentioned is derived from PF2) is great. PF2's system is probably my current favorite published system for generating stats. It has racial penalties and racial bonuses for those who like them but doesn't make any race (ancestry) choice bad for any class. Lots of customizability but you can always get your main stat high enough.

Simplified version:

1) Start with all 10s.
2) Everything gives you a boost. A boost is a +2 to one stat until you get to 18.
3) Your ancestry (race) gives you a boost to two fixed stats, a penalty (-2) to one fixed stat, and a free boost to any stat that didn't already get a boost. Humans get 2 free boosts and no penalties.
4) Your background gives you a fixed boost and a free boost.
5) Your class gives you a boost to the main stat of the class. (It tells you what that is.)
6) To finalize, you get four extra boosts to 4 different stats.

Yup, I'm never getting a chance to play PF2 but I like the concept of its stat genration. I'm just adding a differentiation between Race and Culture that doesn't usually exist in DnD

Meh. The problem with Warlock comes down to Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. Make a minor adjustment to either one of those and it's fine.

In my 'stricter niche class system' the Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast combo would be exclusive to a 'Eldritch Sharpshooter' lv 1-10 class and be essentially a magical version of an Archer Champion. They'd have a small selection of other spells (and probably a utility cantrip to pick from) but most would be to support a 'magical sniper' play style and not to grant them more damage on top of the basic.
 

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