D&D 5E Starting level

[Swarmkeeper]

I played in a campaign where a 1st-level character joined a party of 4th-ish level, and he got insta-killed by the first trap (which the DM didn't intend to be an insta-kill trap). I have to believe that's even more possible with five or more levels' difference. Does that count?

Yep - that can happen but I think that's more of a feature than a bug. DMs can over (or under) estimate the encounters they create. Hope the player hadn't already bought the mini!

The chance that a PC might die, especially a low level one, should be a part of the game, IMO. That's true whether or not they are in the midst of higher level party members. Encounters need not scale to the level of the party, either. Sometimes encounters should be avoided altogether. Sometimes encounters are cakewalks. Sometimes encounters are juuuuust right. But I think I'm veering a bit off the point here...

Are there other "serious problems" you had in mind when a lower level character joins a higher level group?

 

[prabe]

Yep - that can happen but I think that's more of a feature than a bug. DMs can over (or under) estimate the encounters they create. Hope the player hadn't already bought the mini!

The chance that a PC might die, especially a low level one, should be a part of the game, IMO. That's true whether or not they are in the midst of higher level party members. Encounters need not scale to the level of the party, either. Sometimes encounters should be avoided altogether. Sometimes encounters are cakewalks. Sometimes encounters are juuuuust right. But I think I'm veering a bit off the point here...

Are there other "serious problems" you had in mind when a lower level character joins a higher level group?

To the extent this is a bug, I think the locus in this instance was that the DM didn't anticipate the encounter killing anyone--and this particular DM is really, really good at setting up combats to be almost-but-not-quite-TPKs. It wasn't particularly avoidable, IIRC, but it wouldn't likely have been lethal to most of the 4th-level PCs

However, that's not the problem I personally see with having PCs at widely varying levels. To me, it's about the lower-level PCs not really having a role in many (or most) encounters. If everyone else is, say, 6th level, there's not much a 1st-level character can add, as far as filling party roles, particularly in combat; they might be able to fill an out-of-combat role if the party has one open. If you're trying to give everyone time in the spotlight, it's a lot harder when there are variances as large as there are between, say, 5th-level and 2nd.

 

[Reynard]

I think there are things low level party members can do to help out, but the real issue in the power/competence disparity is that in D&D the PCs are generally intended to be equal protagonists. A 1st level PC has a hard time taking the spotlight in a party made up of 6th level PCs. Now, on the upside advancement in 5E is really fast, especially for that lower level PC, so it wouldn't be an issue for very long. But for a few sessions that PC is going to feel like a squire or apprentice.

 

[prabe]

I think there are things low level party members can do to help out, but the real issue in the power/competence disparity is that in D&D the PCs are generally intended to be equal protagonists. A 1st level PC has a hard time taking the spotlight in a party made up of 6th level PCs. Now, on the upside advancement in 5E is really fast, especially for that lower level PC, so it wouldn't be an issue for very long. But for a few sessions that PC is going to feel like a squire or apprentice.

How quick advancement is will vary based on the DM, and on how many people are at the table. If the party is large enough, that'll slow things down substantially.

 

[Reynard]

How quick advancement is will vary based on the DM, and on how many people are at the table. If the party is large enough, that'll slow things down substantially.

One way to really slow it down is to use lots of low level enemies, because of the way the encounter difficulties are designed. For example, a group of 5 6th level PCs facing 18 orcs is a deadly encounter, but rather than receiving the 7000 XP for a deadly encounter fighting a CR 11 solo monster, they only get 1800 XP. That is going to be my go-to method for slower advancement in my sandbox campaign: bring down the average CR and up the average number of enemies.

 

[FrogReaver]

One way to really slow it down is to use lots of low level enemies, because of the way the encounter difficulties are designed. For example, a group of 5 6th level PCs facing 18 orcs is a deadly encounter, but rather than receiving the 7000 XP for a deadly encounter fighting a CR 11 solo monster, they only get 1800 XP. That is going to be my go-to method for slower advancement in my sandbox campaign: bring down the average CR and up the average number of enemies.

Sure but doesn't 1 fireball kill (or nearly kill ) all those orcs?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

To the extent this is a bug, I think the locus in this instance was that the DM didn't anticipate the encounter killing anyone--and this particular DM is really, really good at setting up combats to be almost-but-not-quite-TPKs. It wasn't particularly avoidable, IIRC, but it wouldn't likely have been lethal to most of the 4th-level PCs

However, that's not the problem I personally see with having PCs at widely varying levels. To me, it's about the lower-level PCs not really having a role in many (or most) encounters. If everyone else is, say, 6th level, there's not much a 1st-level character can add, as far as filling party roles, particularly in combat; they might be able to fill an out-of-combat role if the party has one open. If you're trying to give everyone time in the spotlight, it's a lot harder when there are variances as large as there are between, say, 5th-level and 2nd.

No one said DMing was easy!

I do really like your point about spotlight sharing, though, which I would emphasize should always be at the forefront of a DM's mind. It might be somewhat harder with large level variances, but it certainly isn't impossible. If your game is mostly combat, that ratchets up the difficulty for sure but I still think any level character can help out in most any encounter. If a group finds it is truly impossible for everyone to contribute most of the time, the DM may need to rethink their encounter design so that everyone can feel like they are a big part of the action - again, most of the time. Sounds like you have a great DM, so that wasn't the issue in your particular trap case, just an accident of the dice/circumstances. That happens and is part of the tension that makes the game fun, IMO.

I'm not convinced that there are "party roles" that need filling in 5e, however. You can have most any combo of characters and it works fine, even with some overlap - as long as everyone at the table is engaged in creating a fun and memorable time for all.

 

[Reynard]

Sure but doesn't 1 fireball kill (or nearly kill ) all those orcs?

Only if the orcs are idiots. They may not be the brightest bulbs, but they know how to murder. Those 18 orcs should have a variety of types, from sneaky archers to frothing ragers to treacherous sorcerers. They'll be spread out and laying in wait. And if they see a pointy, star covered hat, you can be sure they are going to aim for the head wearing it. The cleric, too.

 

[FrogReaver]

Only if the orcs are idiots. They may not be the brightest bulbs, but they know how to murder. Those 18 orcs should have a variety of types, from sneaky archers to frothing ragers to treacherous sorcerers. They'll be spread out and laying in wait. And if they see a pointy, star covered hat, you can be sure they are going to aim for the head wearing it. The cleric, too.

Only if the players are idiots. It goes both ways.

 

[Reynard]

Only if the players are idiots. It goes both ways.

If 18 orcs can get hit with 1 fireball, the DM is not good at their job.