D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

[Chaosmancer]

In and of itself, no, as what's being created is not itself an Evil thing: golems and constructs are universally regarded as either Neutral or Non-aligned. Here whatever Evil (or Good) that might ensue would arise from the purpose the golems are put to. Also, golems are generally easier to control and keep controlled than are undead; with a golem you command it once and it'll follow that command forever, where with an undead the control and command has to be re-established regularly.

But as the undead being created are specifically called out as Evil then creating such (and thus adding to the Evil in the world) would be an Evil act.

Ditto, but IMO with a more Chaotic bent.

I can't remember offhand whether Homunculi (which for whatever reason I've always seen as being minor demons, not sure why) are themselves Evil; but if they are then - as with the undead - creating them would itself be an Evil act. If not, see golem notes above.

So then, in the context of Cap'n Kobold's "land mine analogy", we have an inconsistency. One is evil, the other is not, but both are equally dangerous in terms of "land mines"

So, you would agree that the analogy fails to stand up as a viable explanation?

 

[Chaosmancer]

By RAW, No, and No



Because the RAW says so.

Likely on account of the fact that you dont animate objects or homonculi using 'dark, sinister magic' that summons and forces an 'evil murderous spirit' into the corpse of a dead person, defiling that persons corpse, and creating an evil monster.

And yet, they fail the "land mine analogy" Cap'n Kobold was using to explain why creating undead to accomplish tasks is evil.

I also think we covered "dark and sinister magic" when I demonstrated that the holy and divine magic of Lawful Good gods can be used to cast Animate dead.

The spell also doesn't state that you must summon and evil and murderous spirit.

Also, no requirement to defile the corpse.

And no requirement that the zombie must be evil, as we established that spore zombies from the Ravinica spore druid also use the zombie statblock, and that the only explanation I've heard for them being evil would logically mean that every single living creature in existence would be evil.

But, technically, they are evil by RAW, so I guess everyone is evil RAW.

 

[Flamestrike]

But, technically, they are evil by RAW.

There you go. That wasn't that hard was it?

 

[Flamestrike]

I also think we covered "dark and sinister magic" when I demonstrated that the holy and divine magic of Lawful Good gods can be used to cast Animate dead.

No, you did nothing of the sort.

The spell also doesn't state that you must summon and evil and murderous spirit.

Says it under the entry for Zombies and Skeletons. You know -the things you're creating.

Also, no requirement to defile the corpse.

Do you consider necrophilia defiling a corpse?

If so, stuffing it full of a 'murderous evil spirit' to animate it using 'dark and sinister magic' is as well.

And no requirement that the zombie must be evil

There is if you're using RAW. Go check the entry for Zombies in the MM if you dont believe me.

But, technically, they are evil by RAW.

There you go! Finally we get there!

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

So, to follow this: Is the creation of golems considered, Dangerous, Illegal and generally not a Good Act?

Animated Objects?

Homunculi?

Nope. None of those involve evil spirits and none of those involve will actively seek to do harm unless specifically used that way.

If Animate Dead spell is using landmines, creating constructs like that would perhaps be making a sword. Not generally regarded as immoral, only illegal in a few areas, and is only likely to bring harm to others when specifically directed to.

And, if they are not, then why are undead seen one way and the others seen the other?

Because the game designers wrote it that way. Like they decided that Devils were Lawful Evil and Demons were Chaotic Evil. They put it into RAW that using Animate Dead was not a good act, and that Skeletons and Zombies have an Evil alignment and will actively try to kill the living when not controlled.

Why did they write it onto the rules and setting mechanics? Tradition maybe? To give a cut-and-dried "bad guy" that characters could oppose without worrying about the moral issues that fighting living beings might create?
You would have to ask them if you want a definitive answer.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There you go. That wasn't that hard was it?

Nope, guess you agree with the second part of that sentence too right? The one where if they are evil then every living creature is evil?

Good, so, everyone is evil.

No, you did nothing of the sort.

So, the source of holy and divine magic gifting you a spell means what in this context?

Because to me, since all clerics gain their powers from their diety, to the point where it is the diety enacting the magic, then I would say that any magic done by an LG diety would by definition be divine, holy, and based in good.

All good dieties can use Animate Dead. So, an LG cleric channeling an LG diety to cast Animate dead would not be using "dark and sinister magic" but "Holy and divine magic"

Says it under the entry for Zombies and Skeletons. You know -the things you're creating.

But not in the spell, you know, the thing I was talking about

Do you consider necrophilia defiling a corpse?

If so, stuffing it full of a 'murderous evil spirit' to animate it using 'dark and sinister magic' is as well.

ROFLOL, seriously? I'm not even going to dignify that leap in logic.

How about this instead, is an autopsy defiling a corpse? How about planting a tree in the corpse to feed off the body and grow?

Also, since we don't have to use dark and sinister magic to stuff a murderous evil spirit into the body, no issue.

There is if you're using RAW. Go check the entry for Zombies in the MM if you dont believe me.

There you go! Finally we get there!

And this takes us back to the Spore Zombie. Which again, if it is evil, using the only explanation given for why that might be, then all life is evil. Every human, elf, dwarf, Aasimar, cow, deer, wolf, shark, dolphin, whale, dragon, mermaid, ect ect ect.

If you haven't gone back to see that argument, the only explanation given for why a spore zombie (which uses the zombie statblock) is evil, is because they are willing to make more corpses to spread and grow.

So, killing to eat is evil, by this explanation. And, pretty much every single living thing does that. So, every living thing would be evil.

But hey, if that is what satisifies you, go ahead and run with it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nope. None of those involve evil spirits and none of those involve will actively seek to do harm unless specifically used that way.

If Animate Dead spell is using landmines, creating constructs like that would perhaps be making a sword. Not generally regarded as immoral, only illegal in a few areas, and is only likely to bring harm to others when specifically directed to.

Because the game designers wrote it that way. Like they decided that Devils were Lawful Evil and Demons were Chaotic Evil. They put it into RAW that using Animate Dead was not a good act, and that Skeletons and Zombies have an Evil alignment and will actively try to kill the living when not controlled.

Why did they write it onto the rules and setting mechanics? Tradition maybe? To give a cut-and-dried "bad guy" that characters could oppose without worrying about the moral issues that fighting living beings might create?
You would have to ask them if you want a definitive answer.

So, creating a golem, telling it to defend a temple and leaving it there for a thousand years is neutral.

Creating an undead, telling it to defend a temple, and leaving it there for a thousand years is evil.

One creates a landmine which may harm innocent people long after the person who made it is gone. The other creates a sword which could be used for evil, but might not be.

Well, I'm sure as the Iron Golem is killing the peasants who fell into the temple complex, they are sure glad to know that it was a neutral act that killed them, totally not a land mine.

And, lest we forget, undead do not actually seek to do harm. They stay put, even by the MM definitions, unless disturbed.

So, it is really arbitrary and has nothing to do with anything.



It is especially amusing to me, because in discussing things with my new brother-in-law, I was reminded of dominate person. You know, the spell that rips away a persons free-will and makes them your puppet? Not called out as evil. In fact, the reading of the Enchantment school, which is all about bending people's minds and making them lose control of their bodies? They present it as fully neutral, just a way to do magic.

But necromancy gets called out as "this is not good and only evil people do so frequently."

 

[Iry]

Do more good deeds than bad ones and you should be fine. If your DM turns you evil just for animating dead then there is probably something else going on.

 

[Flamestrike]

I would say that any magic done by an LG diety would by definition be divine, holy, and based in good.

You can say whatever you want. But (RAW) you're wrong, and thats all that matters here.

How about this instead, is an autopsy defiling a corpse? How about planting a tree in the corpse to feed off the body and grow?

Is a tree or an autopsy 'dark and sinister' magic that imbues the corpse with an evil spirit, animating it into a murderous and wholly evil undead monster?

No it isnt. Which is why autopsies and trees are not called out in the PHB as being 'not Good' acts and only something only Evil people do regularly, yet animating the dead with 'sinister and dark' necromancy magic IS something the RAW calls out as being 'not Good' and only something only Evil people do regularly.

Also, since we don't have to use dark and sinister magic to stuff a murderous evil spirit into the body, no issue.

Yes you do. Says so in the RAW. As you keep ignoring.

 

[Flamestrike]

@Chaosmancer

Look man, can we agree on the following points:

1) The RAW states that animating the dead using necromancy magic is not a good act, and only evil people do so frequently (reference already provided)
2) The RAW on zombies and skeletons states the magic used to animate them is 'sinister and dark magic' that possess the corpse with a wholly evil spirit, that if uncontrolled goes on a murderous rampage, killing everything around it with no pity or remorse (reference already provided)
3) By RAW, zombies and skeletons are Evilly aligned (reference already provided)

and:

4) You accept the above as RAW, but you personally disagree with it being included as RAW in the first place, and would rule otherwise in games you run.

Is that a fair enough summation of where we sit?

Because I am getting sick of going around in circles.