D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[Ruin Explorer]

This is why there should be the surprised round back in the game.

Yes. The way surprise works in 5E is one of those unfortunate "elegant but confusing" deals, which are to be avoided in wide-audience games like D&D, I would suggest. Having an actual surprise round would just make things way more straightforward (and wouldn't prevent some enemies being surprised and not others).

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes. The way surprise works in 5E is one of those unfortunate "elegant but confusing" deals, which are to be avoided in wide-audience games like D&D

Works just fine for me.

The problem is some people dont read the rules, and some people choose to ignore the rules out of not understanding how they work in the bigger picture.

 

[Horwath]

Works just fine for me.

The problem is some people dont read the rules, and some people choose to ignore the rules out of not understanding how they work in the bigger picture.

that is so great about d&d, you can tweak the rules so they can work better for your own taste.

Personally, surprise to us was better in 3e than in 5e, so we roll surprise in 5e like in 3e.

 

[DND_Reborn]

this is why assassinate rules have to change.

by RAW they are anti-fun.

1. Your assassin has to solo infront, stealing all the spotlight from other players.

2. If he does not do that the he gives up his main theme of the class. Anti-fun for assassin.

3. He/she can bash other players to take one level of rogue for expertise and stealth and to give up heavy armor. Anti-fun for probably for most players that do not want to play stealthy character.


having assassinate work for 1st attack assassin makes if he alone manages to be undetected by the target is best of both worlds.

No, this is why they are fun. Assassinate is a powerful feature. You get advantage (allowing a SA) even without surprise. IF you are set-up to get surprise and the critical hit, it is just that much better.

1. The rules are meant for different roles to shine at different times, not for everyone to get an equal share all the time. THAT would be mundane and boring IMO. I enjoy watching other characters perform well in their element, just as mine does.

2. When he does not get the chance, he shines in other ways. It is a sad state if your PC is a one-trick pony.

3. No, he respects what other characters are strong at (tanking, etc.) and if a player or character tries to "bash others" to get their way, they probably won't be in the group for long. And with spells such as "Pass without Trace", and items like Boots of Elvenkind it is not necessary.

 

[Horwath]

No, this is why they are fun. Assassinate is a powerful feature. You get advantage (allowing a SA) even without surprise. IF you are set-up to get surprise and the critical hit, it is just that much better.

if you are noticed before combat and you do not want to be notice, you are in error somewhere
So adv in 1st round is just a safety helmet for clumsy rogues.

3. No, he respects what other characters are strong at (tanking, etc.) and if a player or character tries to "bash others" to get their way, they probably won't be in the group for long. And with spells such as "Pass without Trace", and items like Boots of Elvenkind it is not necessary.

i meant it only as an in-game banter.
It can be fun character hook, preaching about importance of stealth and tactics at every opportunity

 

[DND_Reborn]

if you are noticed before combat and you do not want to be notice, you are in error somewhere
So adv in 1st round is just a safety helmet for clumsy rogues.

Or the target is alert and the DM actually rolls (as they should) for perception, instead of using passive perception. In which case your normal skill might not be enough due to the luck of the die. That hardly makes you a "clumsy rogue".

And even if you do succeed in stealth, another bad roll of the initiative die and bye-bye assassinate anyway.

 

[Horwath]

Or the target is alert and the DM actually rolls (as they should) for perception, instead of using passive perception. In which case your normal skill might not be enough due to the luck of the die. That hardly makes you a "clumsy rogue".

And even if you do succeed in stealth, another bad roll of the initiative die and bye-bye assassinate anyway.

that is why we ditced the initiative rolls.

enough rolls, you will fail somewhere.


And I do not like opposed rolls. d20 is bad die by itself, no need to make it worse.

"active" player should always roll. others should use their passive score.

If you sneak to someone then you roll stealth vs passive perceptio.

If they spend action for active perception they roll vs. your passive stealth.

And in rare case that someone on watch really uses active perception the whole shift, then, and only then you both roll.
But, I've hold watch in military and have seen lots of people doing it. No way in hell are you using active perception unless you hear/see something that already caught your attention.
After few hours you can safely give all guards -5 to their passive percetion as they lose focus.

And as you said. some targets are more aware(expertise in perception) or sometimes terrain simply does not give a chance for stealth.

Or you are an elf with sharpshooter and you take your assassinations like a true sniper from 600ft.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Works just fine for me.

The problem is some people dont read the rules, and some people choose to ignore the rules out of not understanding how they work in the bigger picture.

So it's everyone else's fault, and the rules are perfect? That doesn't seem like a helpful attitude at all.

Surprise in 5E is confusingly described, and this is extremely evident from the large number of threads on virtually all D&D forums which are either people directly talking about how they don't understand Surprise, pointing out rules issues with Surprise, or most often, showing that they don't understand Surprise by describing a situation which involves Surprise but they're not running it RAW.

It's clearly a system that is causing people quite a lot of issues, to this day. For all I know, you're running it wrong, and are just so self-confident that you're not seeing that. The GitP threads analysing how it's meant to work show it isn't as straightforward as you suggest.

 

[Fenris-77]

There is no mention of being 'unsurprised' after the first round.

Where you are getting that from? Counting as the end of the first round is just as arbitrary as saying they aren't surprised after some time later either.

They stop being effected by surprise once they have had a turn. If they are not affected by being surprised that means they are not surprised anymore.

Otherwise they would be surprised for the entire combat which doesn't make any sense.

PHB, pg 189 - If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. That's it. Initiative is rolled as normal for the round but surprised creatures can't act or react, and can also be targets of assassinate. Nothing changes about the structure of the combat round or the order of operations. To break that down a little, the consequence of being surprised is that you don't get an action or reaction in that turn. So the first turn of the combat the creature is surprised, but in the second round they are not, regardless of whether or not they've taken an action yet. The wording of the part about reactions makes it pretty clear that the duration is that first turn, because as soon as the second turn of combat starts they would be able to take a reaction and thus are no longer surprised.

Initiative does not, btw have any effect on the criticals doled out by assassinate, which apply in entirety of the first round.

 

[jmartkdr2]

PHB, pg 189 - If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. That's it. Initiative is rolled as normal for the round but surprised creatures can't act or react, and can also be targets of assassinate. Nothing changes about the structure of the combat round or the order of operations. To break that down a little, the consequence of being surprised is that you don't get an action or reaction in that turn. So the first turn of the combat the creature is surprised, but in the second round they are not, regardless of whether or not they've taken an action yet. The wording of the part about reactions makes it pretty clear that the duration is that first turn, because as soon as the second turn of combat starts they would be able to take a reaction and thus are no longer surprised.

Initiative does not, btw have any effect on the criticals doled out by assassinate, which apply in entirety of the first round.

But it says you don't have reactions until the end of the turn, not the end of the round; so after your turn - immediately before the next turn, not immediately before your next turn - you can take reactions.

Turn and round are not interchangeable. Once your first turn ends, you can take reactions. In the first round, if you were high in the initiative order.

To be fair, your reading is a nice stealth-fix to the problem most people have with the assassinate feature, so I might go that route anyways, but I think it goes against the rules as written..