D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[FrogReaver]

The auto-crit thing is great, but it works better on other classes; Sneak Attack is less burst and more consistent-scale damage. 20d6 at level 20 is ok (70) with a save for 140, but a 7 attack routine each dealing 8d8 or more (after crit) is a strong use of assassinate.

A Gloomstalker 5/Assassin 3 is getting 6 taps at 2d8+2d6 each (114), way outperforming an Assassin 8 (70).

isn’t that a lot like saying action surge is great but it works better on other classes?

Or fireball is okay but it’s better on other classes (day of the fighter got fireball)

while true on the surface - I’m not sure saying something is better for another class is a valid criticism.

 

[Gladius Legis]

True, but most of them don't usually work with adventuring parties either, which is the other main issue with the assassin as a class.

And most of them can fight even if they don't have stealth from the foe - they prefer to kill without being seen, but it's rarely their only option. I would want to leave that option in, don't get me wrong, but trying to build a character class (or even kit) around it has confounded designers for at least four editions now. So I'm suggesting a new approach.

If they need to use extensive stealth to use their core features, they're going to have a hard time fighting alongside... most pc's, really. Any class that needs to split the party to function isn't going to fit in anyways, so why not go with a version of assassin that doesn't clash with the idea of the adventuring party?

But Assassinate does work with adventuring parties. Just not the part that everyone drools about.

 

[jmartkdr2]

But Assassinate does work with adventuring parties. Just not the part that everyone drools about.

Well that's the part that needs fixing, after all. Not a lot of complaints about Infiltration Expertise here.

I'd even leave in the advantage on acting before they target's first turn - it's a good ability but not a great one, or even a subclass-defining one by itself given how many way there are to get advantage. But the main draw of the subclass - the auto-crit on surprised enemies - doesn't really work unless all the starts align for you. That's a flaw. And not one that can be fixed without either changing the general rules on surprise.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Well that's the part that needs fixing, after all. Not a lot of complaints about Infiltration Expertise here.

I'd even leave in the advantage on acting before they target's first turn - it's a good ability but not a great one, or even a subclass-defining one by itself given how many way there are to get advantage. But the main draw of the subclass - the auto-crit on surprised enemies - doesn't really work unless all the starts align for you. That's a flaw. And not one that can be fixed without either changing the general rules on surprise.

No, the flaw is in the expectation, not the design.

Advantage on everybody who hasn't had a turn yet is really quite potent. It means if you win initiative you can run up to the enemies and get Sneak Attack, or get off a ranged attack, without having to hold your action and wait/hope that your allies move into position. (Plus its advantage, which is strong in its own right.)

But people see "Free crit!" and somehow think they're going to do that at the start of most combats. Really it's just a cool little extra that you will get to use every now and then.

 

[Fenris-77]

But people see "Free crit!" and somehow think they're going to do that at the start of most combats. Really it's just a cool little extra that you will get to use every now and then.

Barring a stealth-built party yeah, and even then it wouldn't be every combat. The crit thing also does do a good job of making the assassin a very reliable sentry disposal system, which does come up. That might have been part of your "every now and then", IDK. Even in a full party it will come up every now and then. I wouldn't build specifically around that nova though.

 

[Horwath]

No, the flaw is in the expectation, not the design.

Advantage on everybody who hasn't had a turn yet is really quite potent. It means if you win initiative you can run up to the enemies and get Sneak Attack, or get off a ranged attack, without having to hold your action and wait/hope that your allies move into position. (Plus its advantage, which is strong in its own right.)

But people see "Free crit!" and somehow think they're going to do that at the start of most combats. Really it's just a cool little extra that you will get to use every now and then.

"Advantage on everybody who hasn't had a turn yet is really quite useless" - to fix it for you.

I played assassin in one campaign to level 9 and it came up once.

As a rogue, before a fight you are hidden so you get your advantage anyway or you are spotted before you spot the sentry so you start your combat with a bolt in your face and lose 1st turn action.

 

[Guest 6801328]

"Advantage on everybody who hasn't had a turn yet is really quite useless" - to fix it for you.

I played assassin in one campaign to level 9 and it came up once.

Because you never beat any bad guys on initiative? How is that even possible?

I'm confused.

As a rogue, before a fight you are hidden so you get your advantage anyway or you are spotted before you spot the sentry so you start your combat with a bolt in your face and lose 1st turn action.

Every time? Seriously?

That's not what happens at the games I play in.

 

[Horwath]

Because you never beat any bad guys on initiative? How is that even possible?

I'm confused.

If one side in combat surprises other side in combat(and we tend to avoid settings where there are two armies in the middle of the field) then the initiative only matters for 2nd round of combat as you as a loser on stealth/perception roll is already sitting the 1st round out. And in 2nd round assassinate is worth nothing.

Every time? Seriously?

That's not what happens at the games I play in.

well, we like to exploit ambushes wherever and whenever is possible. both PCs and NPCs.

advantage on one attack is still advantage on an attack.
And you get to pick when the fight starts.
Even if you are heavy armor, sword and board fighter, you could still try to hide. Wait, throw a javelin with advantage behind cover, then draw your sword and close in.

and it is still possible to pull ambush in heavy armor.

You might have a very good cover(that advantage cancels out heavy armor disadvantage on stealth) or you have a cloak that is perfect coloring for blending in the background. And/or you have some to cast Pass without trace.

also during the night, even with full party with darkvision, you still have disadvantage on perception due to everyone counting as lightly obscured.


It is nice when PCs come down with PTSD and wonder: Why do all the trees speak Goblin?

 

[Guest 6801328]

If one side in combat surprises other side in combat(and we tend to avoid settings where there are two armies in the middle of the field)

We must be implementing the rules differently, because we often have fights in which neither side is surprised. I would say most of the time. 2nd most frequent case is that some of the PCs are surprised.

 

[Horwath]

We must be implementing the rules differently, because we often have fights in which neither side is surprised. I would say most of the time. 2nd most frequent case is that some of the PCs are surprised.

little bit maybe.

but it is also due to style of a overall setting.

But, no matter the RAW even if someone springs the ambush on the PC, but they do not notice ALL of the PCs, they surprise only the ones that didn't notice the ambushers.

To me it is far more realistic to have part of the PCs surprised by lets say goblin ambush. But if other PCs managed to succeed on their stealth check, they could still "ambush" the goblins as they are still non-existant from goblin perceptive.

And also those additional PCs(or all of them) that "surprised" the ambushers could also be "ambushed" by second wave of goblins if the second wave succeed on their respective stealth checks.

So if there is an assassin in 2nd wave of goblins and that goblin makes the stealth check, I would give him advantage on 1st attack as normal and with the addition of auto-crit. But, then his presence is know, and all he can do is try to get advantage on attack with stealth checks as normal. Probably with default disadvantage on stealth(depending on availability of cover in proximity).

Also as I mentioned;
I hate rolling for initiative before surprise is over(unless there is characters on both side that can act in surprise, and then I would reroll initiative form "normal" combat from there on)

knowing how high/low you did roll on initiative before surprise is resolved leads to metagame decisions and I do not like that.