D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[Horwath]

But does it need fixing?

I mean automatic criticals is insanely strong, especially on a class like the Rogue, who is doubling their already huge spike damage. There is no other feature in the game that grants that ability.

Bearing in mind at 3rd level the Assassin is also getting advantage to attack rolls against creatures that have yet to take a turn (every single combat) - another strong ability - and 2 tool proficiencies as well, isnt it totally appropriate and balanced that the 'auto-crit' feature only ever triggers pretty rarely, AND takes a bit of effort (and luck) to set it up to work in the first place?

I mean by comparison, at the same level (3rd) Thief rogues can climb and jump a bit better, and gain the ability to interact with an object or pick pockets as a bonus action. Swashbucklers gain a bonus to initiative, slightly easier sneak attack, and half the mobility feat. Scout Rogues get a reaction half move every turn, and 2 bonus proficiency.

It seems totally balanced compared to those features, and even then only when you take into account it will only happen relatively rarely.

problem is that with RAW it takes too much effort and too much luck:

1. You must ditch everyone from your escort(party) that cannot sneak as good as your or as closely good as you. And even if they can...more people, more chance that someone will fumble their stealth check.

2. You must be in terrain that gives opportunity for stealth. Most of the time you will get this chance. Unless DM likes his battlegrounds in open field or town squares in high noon.

3. You need to win your stealth check.

4. You need to win initiative

5. You need to hit. Even with advantage misses happen.


So, you need all that passed so you can, sometimes, on 3rd level, get an extra 3d6 damage? Once per battle.

When you remove bullet point 1&4, it is a good ability, with those it is too circumstantial.

 

[jmartkdr2]

But does it need fixing?

I mean automatic criticals is insanely strong, especially on a class like the Rogue, who is doubling their already huge spike damage. There is no other feature in the game that grants that ability.

...

It seems totally balanced compared to those features, and even then only when you take into account it will only happen relatively rarely.

I'm not saying it need to happen more often so much as the trigger shouldn't be quite so dependent on what other people (the dm, other players) are doing. That's where the 1/LR suggestion came from. Or just removing the very strong-but-you-might-not-get to-use-it bonus and replacing it with a more in-line bonus that isn't crazy if you get very lucky with how other people play.

 

[Flamestrike]

problem is that with RAW it takes too much effort and too much luck:

1. You must ditch everyone from your escort(party) that cannot sneak as good as your or as closely good as you. And even if they can...more people, more chance that someone will fumble their stealth check.

2. You must be in terrain that gives opportunity for stealth. Most of the time you will get this chance. Unless DM likes his battlegrounds in open field or town squares in high noon.

3. You need to win your stealth check.

4. You need to win initiative

5. You need to hit. Even with advantage misses happen.


So, you need all that passed so you can, sometimes, on 3rd level, get an extra 3d6 damage? Once per battle.

When you remove bullet point 1&4, it is a good ability, with those it is too circumstantial.

Scout out ahead of your party largely solves problem 1 (lucky for you you can bonus action dash back to them due to cunning action if you get caught out). Expertise in Perception and Stealth (the big 2) solves problem 3. As for winning initiative, the Alert feat (a feat tax for Rogue Assassins) plus your high Dex should take care of that, and I cant help anyone hitting more than giving them advantage on the attack roll.

If I was playing an Assassin, Id be taking the Alert feat, and 3 levels of Gloomstalker Ranger (built for the sneaky Ninja Assassin type).

That means you're basically always invisible in darkness (so you can always hide), which you can always see in thanks to your darkvision, Pass without Trace is always cast on you (because you know the spell) and you have expertise with Stealth (so you're always hidden), you're adding [Dex + Wis + 5] to Initiative checks, so you're always going first, and you're getting an extra attack (at advantage) to land your sneak attack, which is not only a critical, but is adding +2d8 to the damage.

 

[Guest 6801328]

problem is that with RAW it takes too much effort and too much luck:

1. You must ditch everyone from your escort(party) that cannot sneak as good as your or as closely good as you. And even if they can...more people, more chance that someone will fumble their stealth check.

2. You must be in terrain that gives opportunity for stealth. Most of the time you will get this chance. Unless DM likes his battlegrounds in open field or town squares in high noon.

3. You need to win your stealth check.

4. You need to win initiative

5. You need to hit. Even with advantage misses happen.


So, you need all that passed so you can, sometimes, on 3rd level, get an extra 3d6 damage? Once per battle.

When you remove bullet point 1&4, it is a good ability, with those it is too circumstantial.

You're making this sound too hard.

1. Using group stealth rules, you need half your party to roll Stealth that beats at least some of the Perception rolls, or the passive Perception (depending on how your DM does it), of the bad guys.*
2. You need to roll initiative that beats at least one of the bad guys who failed their Perception roll.
3. You have to hit. With advantage. If you miss, you try your offhand. If you miss TWICE with advantage then you're just cursed.

*Step 1 is SUPER easy by, the way, with a Ranger or Druid who casts Pass w/o Trace. Guidance can help, too. And of course you should have a minimum stealth of +7 by level 3, if using Assassinate is important to you.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Scout out ahead of your party largely solves problem 1 (lucky for you you can bonus action dash back to them due to cunning action if you get caught out). Expertise in Perception and Stealth (the big 2) solves problem 3. As for winning initiative, the Alert feat (a feat tax for Rogue Assassins) plus your high Dex should take care of that, and I cant help anyone hitting more than giving them advantage on the attack roll.

If I was playing an Assassin, Id be taking the Alert feat, and 3 levels of Gloomstalker Ranger (built for the sneaky Ninja Assassin type).

That means you're basically always invisible in darkness (so you can always hide), which you can always see in thanks to your darkvision, Pass without Trace is always cast on you (because you know the spell) and you have expertise with Stealth (so you're always hidden), you're adding [Dex + Wis + 5] to Initiative checks, so you're always going first, and you're getting an extra attack (at advantage) to land your sneak attack, which is not only a critical, but is adding +2d8 to the damage.

Yeah, and Gloomstalker/Assassin makes this almost too easy. I played that combo in Out of the Abyss.

 

[Horwath]

Scout out ahead of your party largely solves problem 1 (lucky for you you can bonus action dash back to them due to cunning action if you get caught out). Expertise in Perception and Stealth (the big 2) solves problem 3. As for winning initiative, the Alert feat (a feat tax for Rogue Assassins) plus your high Dex should take care of that, and I cant help anyone hitting more than giving them advantage on the attack roll.

If I was playing an Assassin, Id be taking the Alert feat, and 3 levels of Gloomstalker Ranger (built for the sneaky Ninja Assassin type).

That means you're basically always invisible in darkness (so you can always hide), which you can always see in thanks to your darkvision, Pass without Trace is always cast on you (because you know the spell) and you have expertise with Stealth (so you're always hidden), you're adding [Dex + Wis + 5] to Initiative checks, so you're always going first, and you're getting an extra attack (at advantage) to land your sneak attack, which is not only a critical, but is adding +2d8 to the damage.

and here is the problem.

You are not an assassin, you are a ranger(as you need 5 levels of ranger for Pass without trace) with 3 level dip so you can try to get a critical strike in 1st round.
Or all assassins come with "pocket 3rd level druid" as standard gear pack?

so;
1. feats: optional
2. multiclassing: optional

 

[Flamestrike]

and here is the problem.

You are not an assassin, you are a ranger(as you need 5 levels of ranger for Pass without trace) with 3 level dip so you can try to get a critical strike in 1st round.
Or all assassins come with "pocket 3rd level druid" as standard gear pack?

so;
1. feats: optional
2. multiclassing: optional

You dont need the 3 levels man. Im just saying they pair well on an Assassin.

Assassin is fine enough as is.

 

[Horwath]

You dont need the 3 levels man. Im just saying they pair well on an Assassin.

Assassin is fine enough as is.

To you it is. And that is ok

To me, it's worst subclass or the rogue, that maybe is the weakest class overall(but I still like to play it).

Assassins 3rd level ability has to much check boxes to check before working,

9th and 13th level abilities are somewhere between rubbish and utter rubbish. No wonder that almost every assassin build does not come to that rogue level, but is a cheese fest of multiple 2-3 level dips.

and 17th level ability; as much as it is good on paper is completely dependent on same check boxes as 3rd level ability. Again highlighting the same problems of the class.

 

[Guest 6801328]

9th and 13th level abilities are somewhere between rubbish and utter rubbish.

Now that I will agree with, if only because they are far, far too dependent upon a certain type of campaign.

 

[Horwath]

Maybe we could make assassinate work 100% depending on the rogue, but have a penalty for having a "heavy metal sneak" party or bad luck on initiative. And have a little buff on other less useful features

Assassin:

1 - 3rd level;
Bonus proficiency: proficiency AND expertise with disguise kit and poisoner's kit.

Assassinate: If you are hidden from your target you can Study the target as an Action. If you remain hidden from the target before your next attack, if that attack hits, it is a critical hit.
You must attack the target within one minute and target cannot become hidden from you before then.

2 - 9th level;
Potent poisons: If you apply poison as a part of your assassinate attack, target suffers disadvantage on its saving throw.

Expert infiltrator: Gain expertise in Deception. If you already have it, gain expertise in Intimidation or Persuasion.

3 - 13th level:
Shadow: You are permanently affected with non-detection spell

4 - 17th level:
Death strike: Target of your Assassinate attack must succeed of Con save(DC 8+dex mod+prof mod) or suffer double damage from your Assassinate attack. Target also loses any resistance on poison damage. Any immunity remain.