D&D 5E "Fixing" assassinate.

[jmartkdr2]

Advantage on the first turn is pretty good - not great (you need to invest to win initiative regularly) and it's only one of many ways to get advantage (including hiding, which rogue often do), so it's also not fantastic. If a rogue subclass only got that, it would be underpowered.

The autocrit bonus is cool, regardless of whatever effect it has on dpr, but hugely unreliable - it depends on a bunch of situational factors to work, which is something I would call bad design for a feature. Getting a bunch of circumstances to line up should be for making combos work, not individual features. If that's going to be the flashiest part of the class, it should be more reliable at least. Maybe not coming up more often, but a 1/LR version that only need to be the first turn and a hit?

I'm mostly just spitballing options here.

 

[Guest 6801328]

little bit maybe.

but it is also due to style of a overall setting.

But, no matter the RAW even if someone springs the ambush on the PC, but they do not notice ALL of the PCs, they surprise only the ones that didn't notice the ambushers.

To me it is far more realistic to have part of the PCs surprised by lets say goblin ambush. But if other PCs managed to succeed on their stealth check, they could still "ambush" the goblins as they are still non-existant from goblin perceptive.

And also those additional PCs(or all of them) that "surprised" the ambushers could also be "ambushed" by second wave of goblins if the second wave succeed on their respective stealth checks.

So if there is an assassin in 2nd wave of goblins and that goblin makes the stealth check, I would give him advantage on 1st attack as normal and with the addition of auto-crit. But, then his presence is know, and all he can do is try to get advantage on attack with stealth checks as normal. Probably with default disadvantage on stealth(depending on availability of cover in proximity).

Also as I mentioned;
I hate rolling for initiative before surprise is over(unless there is characters on both side that can act in surprise, and then I would reroll initiative form "normal" combat from there on)

knowing how high/low you did roll on initiative before surprise is resolved leads to metagame decisions and I do not like that.

Ok, fair enough. A lot of that makes sense narratively. But I hope you realize you aren't playing by RAW, which is fine, but it definitely qualifies your criticism of the ability as "quite useless".

 

[Gladius Legis]

Advantage on the first turn is pretty good - not great (you need to invest to win initiative regularly)

A huge part of that "investment" is the same investment all Rogues make, namely increasing their DEX. That alone makes that part of Assassinate kick in pretty often. If that's not enough, then there's the Alert feat, which is good anyway; in fact taking that feat means you can Expertise something other than Perception. So, win-win there.

And again, Assassins are the only Rogues that get rewarded for winning initiative. All other Rogues prefer to go later in the order, so other party members can set them up for Sneak Attacks.

and it's only one of many ways to get advantage (including hiding, which rogue often do)

Takes a bonus action. And there may not be places to hide; in fact in many battles IMX there aren't.

 

[FrogReaver]

A huge part of that "investment" is the same investment all Rogues make, namely increasing their DEX. That alone makes that part of Assassinate kick in pretty often. If that's not enough, then there's the Alert feat, which is good anyway; in fact taking that feat means you can Expertise something other than Perception. So, win-win there.

And again, Assassins are the only Rogues that get rewarded for winning initiative. All other Rogues prefer to go later in the order, so other party members can set them up for Sneak Attacks.


Takes a bonus action. And there may not be places to hide; in fact in many battles IMX there aren't.

I think it's less about how often assassinate can kick in and more about how often it can be of no benefit - even the advantage part. Hiding provides advantage. Rogues will often be hidden at the start of battle - not always but often enough. Thus they get advantage on their first round anyways.

Don't get me wrong - I love assassins because of that insurance of being able to sneak attack on turn 1 even when I'm not hiding. It's just that I often could have advantage without relying on that feature.

 

[ad_hoc]

Advantage on the first turn is pretty good - not great (you need to invest to win initiative regularly) and it's only one of many ways to get advantage (including hiding, which rogue often do), so it's also not fantastic. If a rogue subclass only got that, it would be underpowered.

The autocrit bonus is cool, regardless of whatever effect it has on dpr, but hugely unreliable - it depends on a bunch of situational factors to work, which is something I would call bad design for a feature. Getting a bunch of circumstances to line up should be for making combos work, not individual features. If that's going to be the flashiest part of the class, it should be more reliable at least. Maybe not coming up more often, but a 1/LR version that only need to be the first turn and a hit?

I'm mostly just spitballing options here.

The way I see it is that the auto-crit is there in the situation that the Rogue is hiding when they surprise their foes.

Getting Advantage on the first round isn't fun when you have advantage from hiding already. So they added in an extra part about getting auto-crit.

I don't think it was ever intended to be the main thing.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The way I see it is that the auto-crit is there in the situation that the Rogue is hiding when they surprise their foes.

Getting Advantage on the first round isn't fun when you have advantage from hiding already. So they added in an extra part about getting auto-crit.

I don't think it was ever intended to be the main thing.

Agree. In fact it couldn't have been intended as the main thing. If it were at all reliable, it would be too powerful for a 3rd level subclass ability.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Agree. In fact it couldn't have been intended as the main thing. If it were at all reliable, it would be too powerful for a 3rd level subclass ability.

What, reliable advantage? Samurai and barbarians don't seem to be breaking anything with theirs.

 

[Gladius Legis]

What, reliable advantage? Samurai and barbarians don't seem to be breaking anything with theirs.

Pretty sure he means the auto-crit part.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Pretty sure he means the auto-crit part.

Yeah.

 

[Flamestrike]

Well that's the part that needs fixing, after all. Not a lot of complaints about Infiltration Expertise here.

But does it need fixing?

I mean automatic criticals is insanely strong, especially on a class like the Rogue, who is doubling their already huge spike damage. There is no other feature in the game that grants that ability.

Bearing in mind at 3rd level the Assassin is also getting advantage to attack rolls against creatures that have yet to take a turn (every single combat) - another strong ability - and 2 tool proficiencies as well, isnt it totally appropriate and balanced that the 'auto-crit' feature only ever triggers pretty rarely, AND takes a bit of effort (and luck) to set it up to work in the first place?

I mean by comparison, at the same level (3rd) Thief rogues can climb and jump a bit better, and gain the ability to interact with an object or pick pockets as a bonus action. Swashbucklers gain a bonus to initiative, slightly easier sneak attack, and half the mobility feat. Scout Rogues get a reaction half move every turn, and 2 bonus proficiency.

It seems totally balanced compared to those features, and even then only when you take into account it will only happen relatively rarely.