Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[DEFCON 1]

No one can agree on psionics because at the core, no one agrees on what is "magic" in D&D currently.

What * is * "magic"? Is it anything and everything that we in the real-world would call "supernatural"? Is it only things that are specifically called out as being "spells" that are "cast"? Is it only things that those classes that use the "Arcane" source do?

Are the supernatural things the Monk does "magic"? Are the Cleric and Paladin's abilities that come from their gods and oaths (like say their Channel Divinity features) "magic"? Is a Druid's wildshaping "magic"? Everyone is going to have a different opinion.

For some... "magic" will be only those things that can be stopped with Dispel Magic. So anything a Monk does or any supernatural feature a monster does isn't "magic" because they can't be dispelled. Despite the fact that that stuff certainly is supernatural. For others... ANYTHING "supernatural" falls into the category of "magic", regardless of whether it can be dispelled, or counterspelled, or stops working in an anti-magic field. If it's something we normies can't do... it's because "magic".

If you are one of the former, then of course psionics isn't "magic" and should never be "magic". "Magic" is specifically the casting of magical spells, and probably only those spells that are arcane in nature. Since psionics isn't that... then it's not "magic". Which is why they want psionics to be its own class, rather than being tethered to an arcane class like Sorcerer or Wizard as a subclass. Psionics isn't magic and it certainly isn't Arcane, and thus shouldn't be connected to it in any way (despite what either arcane class can do with their spells whose functionality and results look and perform pretty much the same as the stuff psions accomplish.)

Or if you are one of the latter... since "magic" is merely a catch-all term and a synonym of "supernatural".. psionics WOULD be "magic" because it is a supernatural thing. It's something a normal person just can't do. And if that's the case... it is much easier to just let it sit in the pool with everything else that is supernatural because they are less inclined to split everything up. There's no "arcane" and "divine" split because those terms are meaningless as actual "thing"... they are just layovers from an older time. Same way 5E doesn't identify barbarian, ranger, or druid stuff as "primal" anymore. And thus the need of an entirely separate "psionics" grouping is unnecessary too. To these people... psionics are just supernatural effects you personally can do with your mind without needing to gain it from outside sources. Which is why these people DON'T see a difference between the Sorcerer and the Psion (and probably the Monk)-- all three of them get their supernatural abilities from within themselves, and there's no appreciable difference if its just from "your mind" (like the psion) or "your body" (like the monk) or "your blood" (like the sorcerer). All three have supernatural abilities, and thus all three are using "magic". And worrying about keeping any of them separate and distinct from any other is unnecessary, even if people call their "magic" different things (like "spells" or "oaths" or "ki" or "channeling divinity" or "invocations" or "bardic inspiration" or yes, even "psionics".)

 

[SkidAce]

and



See, the thing that's being ignore here is that you almost never have any setting where you have magic AND psionics of any kind. Why would you? Psionics in genre fiction is just magic by another name. We're not allowed to have magic in our SF setting, so, Spock does a Mind Meld - but, apparently, if anyone else does it, fans get in a tizzy - see the recent Picard series.

If it's not magic, and it's just science, then anyone can learn how to do it. But, only Jedi can use the Force. Only Vulcans can Mind Meld. Etc. Psionics absolutely IS magic, just in a funny set of glasses.

I'm actually really struggling to think of any non-D&D derived setting where you have magic and psionic powers in the same setting.

I know you mean published setting, but my campaign ha had both since 1st edition.

BLUF: Psionics is sciency and a higher order of magic used by the "Ancients".
Gods don't like it, it steps on their toes. Abberations from the Void love it.
Magic is the normal route to power and changing the world.

 

[Aldarc]

We're no stranger to psionics. You know the rules, and so do I. A full conversion's what I'm thinking of. You wouldn't get this from any other psi. I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling. Gotta make you understand...

I'm actually really struggling to think of any non-D&D derived setting where you have magic and psionic powers in the same setting.

It depends on how you are defining "non-D&D derived setting." Even then, I'm not sure how you are struggling unless you are neither familiar with other games or not actually putting good faith effort into thinking of any. Let's start with two obvious mainstream ones: Marvel and DC. Now your struggle is over.

In TTRPGs, there's Runquest/Mythras, which has Mysticism that is similar to Psionics, but alongside Theism, Animism, and Sorcery. There's Call of Cthulhu. Does Modern AGE (and Threefold) count? Or is that considered D&D derived? There's the upcoming Chronicles of Future Earth for Fate, which distinguishes between divine magic, sorcery, and psionics. There's Savage Worlds (admittedly not a setting, but a rules system) that separates Magic, Miracles, Weird Science, and Psionics. Numenera has both, but it's all Arthur C. Clarke level stuff.

Now I'm cool with calling Psionics a form of magic, but I suspect that many fans of psionics in D&D would prefer if it at least existed as a separate and distinct magical tradition, much like Divine and Arcane. Pathfinder 2 may go this way since it created the Occult tradition that exists alongside the Arcane, Divine, and Primal magical traditions.

No one can agree on psionics because at the core, no one agrees on what is "magic" in D&D currently.

I kinda get the feeling that devs are somewhat reluctant to answer or make a hardline stance on that question.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Now for the other question. WotC has also answered this one, they want everyone to have it. Which causes issues for everyone who wants a Psion Class. Once again, there is a dedicated group of people who are ride-or-die for the Psion Class and will vote against any attempt at a subclass. Granted, it's far more likely that we will get a psionic class printed at some point, but until that comes to pass any psionic subclass is going to get unnecessary negative feedback on “principle”, because there might be a chance that WotC stops making at the psionic subclasses.

In conclusion: The UA Psionics are never going to make enough people happy because the people who are interested in UA and want psionics are divided into opposing “all-or-nothing” camps. In order for psionics to make it past UA you would need to somehow appease enough of everyone all at once, which I don't see as happening unless maybe they actually push out an entire books worth of UA that lets most people have something.

Yeah, this sounds wrong.

The first UA was July 2015, the first Mystic. Then another version in February 2016, and a final version in March 2017.

It doesn't look like any of these versions passed muster, as Wizard's said in the last UA that feedback was too negative and they've given up on the Mystic.

Then in 2019, Sorceror gets a psionics subclass. The next month, November 2019, Wizard/Fighter/Rogue get subclasses too.

Now we have April 2020, we rerun of the fighter/rogue/sorcerer.

If you look at this timeline, it looks like this;

1. The team kept trying to find a way to create a Psionics subclass, and it was never able to cross 70%.
2. The subclass route has better feedback than the Mystic, and is why they are continuing to pursue that route for psionics instead of a different class.
3. Some subclasses are getting more editing, including the fighter/rogue/sorceror.

Now, is the reason the subclasses are getting more editing because the feedback is too negative, and they are trying to edit them to get them above 70%? Or is it instead that they dropped Wizard because it is the worst received, and tweaking the other three because they are close to where they are happy with them?

I suspect it is the last, that the rogue/fighter/sorcerer are close to actual being ready for print. The Mystic also went under several iterations, but each one was released almost a year apart from each other. Compared to that timeline, these subclsses are getting a much faster UA testing period, hinting that the team is pushing for a book soon that puts in psionincs. Considering the last version in April is more tweaks than complete revamps, it looks like they are getting close.

As @Parmandur says, people on forums don't represent all D&D players. If material is good, it gets printed. Plus, if Wizard's really wants to publish something, they may be more flexible about that 70% threshold. They don't even submit every new rule for review, as Satyrs and Leonin are being published for Theros and never saw a UA.

Now, I don't actually know if this truly means Dark Sun (though please, please Dark Sun). There haven't been any UA's yet for races or other Dark Sun-related material that I've noticed, though they possibly are just saving those (Theros' new races never got testing) as they don't want to give the game away.

I'd be amazed if we got these rules this year, even in Q4. Next year Q2 makes more sense to me, but I'm hoping I'm wrong and it is sooner.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I'm actually really struggling to think of any non-D&D derived setting where you have magic and psionic powers in the same setting.

Here are a few, however in most cases they don't use the term "Psionic" to refer to what is happening. Rather its defined as "Strange things that specifically aren't MAGIC" in the respective setting and usually referred to as "Powers".

1. In the DC universe, Superman (at least in some incarnations) is immune and highly resistant to a LOT of things, but his vulnerability to MAGIC is one of his weaknesses. So you can shoot him with a nuke or blast him with a Firebolt (which is a superpower, not magic) and he is unharmed whereas a Firebolt (which is a spell cast by a magician, not a superpower) would affect him normally.

2. In the Marvel universe, Dr. Strange is a normal human with no super powers but who knows MAGIC. If he were in an area in which MAGIC was suppressed, he would be useless while the Fantastic Four wouldn't even notice something had happened. In that universe there is a distinction in power source between mutants, altered humans, and magic so much so that its a major source of plot. Humanity always seems to hate mutants but has no problem with the Hulk or Thor.

3. In the Steven Brust series of novels starting with Jhereg he establishes that there are at least two different sources of supernatural power. There is MAGIC like we consider it to be on DnD terms and "Witchcraft" which is a totally different technique with different abilities and expectations of how things work. It becomes a plot point in the series that the two are different enough that one can affect someone that the other might not.

4. In the RPG setting of Rifts there are mechanically differentiated Psions and Magicians.

5. In the RPG setting of Torg there are mechanically differentiated systems for Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Psionics, Superpowers, and Gadgets.

NOTE: In 5e Monks are an example I would use to show how a character can do Superhuman things but it not actually be MAGIC. When the monk hits you with a stunning blow it functions like a spell mechanically, cost points to do, and distinctly isn't magic and cannot be dispelled or countered. This is why Psionics CAN be different in 5e, however they should be working from the Monk as the start of the concept to develop it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I kinda get the feeling that devs are somewhat reluctant to answer or make a hardline stance on that question.

It's hard to take a hardline stance on something no one (including the devs) agrees on.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No one can agree on psionics because at the core, no one agrees on what is "magic" in D&D currently.

What * is * "magic"? Is it anything and everything that we in the real-world would call "supernatural"? Is it only things that are specifically called out as being "spells" that are "cast"? Is it only things that those classes that use the "Arcane" source do?

Are the supernatural things the Monk does "magic"? Are the Cleric and Paladin's abilities that come from their gods and oaths (like say their Channel Divinity features) "magic"? Is a Druid's wildshaping "magic"? Everyone is going to have a different opinion.

For some... "magic" will be only those things that can be stopped with Dispel Magic. So anything a Monk does or any supernatural feature a monster does isn't "magic" because they can't be dispelled. Despite the fact that that stuff certainly is supernatural. For others... ANYTHING "supernatural" falls into the category of "magic", regardless of whether it can be dispelled, or counterspelled, or stops working in an anti-magic field. If it's something we normies can't do... it's because "magic".

If you are one of the former, then of course psionics isn't "magic" and should never be "magic". "Magic" is specifically the casting of magical spells, and probably only those spells that are arcane in nature. Since psionics isn't that... then it's not "magic". Which is why they want psionics to be its own class, rather than being tethered to an arcane class like Sorcerer or Wizard as a subclass. Psionics isn't magic and it certainly isn't Arcane, and thus shouldn't be connected to it in any way (despite what either arcane class can do with their spells whose functionality and results look and perform pretty much the same as the stuff psions accomplish.)

Or if you are one of the latter... since "magic" is merely a catch-all term and a synonym of "supernatural".. psionics WOULD be "magic" because it is a supernatural thing. It's something a normal person just can't do. And if that's the case... it is much easier to just let it sit in the pool with everything else that is supernatural because they are less inclined to split everything up. There's no "arcane" and "divine" split because those terms are meaningless as actual "thing"... they are just layovers from an older time. Same way 5E doesn't identify barbarian, ranger, or druid stuff as "primal" anymore. And thus the need of an entirely separate "psionics" grouping is unnecessary too. To these people... psionics are just supernatural effects you personally can do with your mind without needing to gain it from outside sources. Which is why these people DON'T see a difference between the Sorcerer and the Psion (and probably the Monk)-- all three of them get their supernatural abilities from within themselves, and there's no appreciable difference if its just from "your mind" (like the psion) or "your body" (like the monk) or "your blood" (like the sorcerer). All three have supernatural abilities, and thus all three are using "magic". And worrying about keeping any of them separate and distinct from any other is unnecessary, even if people call their "magic" different things (like "spells" or "oaths" or "ki" or "channeling divinity" or "invocations" or "bardic inspiration" or yes, even "psionics".)

Yeah, this sort of confusion is why I despise the Anti-Magic field. Too many things should turn off that don't and everything just starts breaking down.

But I also doubt it will ever be answered in a coherent way that I like, so I just muddle on through.

It depends on how you are defining "non-D&D derived setting." Even then, I'm not sure how you are struggling unless you are neither familiar with other games or not actually putting good faith effort into thinking of any. Let's start with two obvious mainstream ones: Marvel and DC. Now your struggle is over.

Comic books are a bit of a unique problem. Because none of it was originally written to go together, and was eventually all collected together.

I've actually read quite a few unique Superhero settings that try and tackle this, and the most coherent answer generally given is that all superpowers share a common root, and simply express themselves as the person who has them desires/believes/matches their soul/mumbo jumbo.

I'd also posit that most of the settings like Marvel and DC that simply throw it all together and ignore the inconsistencies, actually skew closer to magic and psionics being one. The most common magical spell I've read about Superheroes or heroines casting? Mind Shields to protect themselves from telepaths. Psychic bolts are stopped by runic shields, ect ect.

To translate that into DnD, we would need to allow them to interact with each other, which would make them both "magic"

In TTRPGs, there's Runquest/Mythras, which has Mysticism that is similar to Psionics, but alongside Theism, Animism, and Sorcery. There's Call of Cthulhu. Does Modern AGE (and Threefold) count? Or is that considered D&D derived? There's the upcoming Chronicles of Future Earth for Fate, which distinguishes between divine magic, sorcery, and psionics. There's Savage Worlds (admittedly not a setting, but a rules system) that separates Magic, Miracles, Weird Science, and Psionics. Numenera has both, but it's all Arthur C. Clarke level stuff

Savage Worlds is a bad example simply because, as you state, it is a rule system. Savage Worlds is meant to be a generic engine capable of running a game in any genre you want, so obviously they would throw psionics in.

However, if you look at how it works, all of those sources (Miracles, Magic, Weird Science, Psionics) pull from an identical list of powers. The Blast power does 1d6 to 3d6 damage depending on how many power points you put into it, and you roll your associated skill. And this is true for all four "sources". So again, it would work closer in DnD to just making Psionics magic.

I'd say a similar guess for Numenera and Cthulhu in that they come from the same root source. In Cthulhu, as I understand it, using any sort of power is tapping into the powers of either the Elder Gods or the Great Old Ones, gaining telepathy from encountering some horror or reading a book and utilizing a ritual to call on a dark star are all using the same power source. It isn't understood, but that is the point. Numenera is a sci-fi setting, if memory serves me, and everything is actually nanite technology and mutations from genetic tinkering (from what little I saw of the setting in the past)

 

[Kobold Avenger]

The Crystal-throwing Ectoplasm using was an area of psionics (Metacreation) that was unique from other forms of magic in what Psionics could do. I'd say even unique to D&D itself, even though an Astral Construct is inspired by the Tibetan concept of a Tulpa, and Ectoplasm being a Victorian Era mysticism concept.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I'm actually really struggling to think of any non-D&D derived setting where you have magic and psionic powers in the same setting.

Warhammer 40,000 is a weird example... at first glance, it would look like there is only psionics, and in what they actually call "magic" it is just psionics (or their special naming, psykers).

However, some followers of Chaos are going way beyond what we actually think of psionics into things that are really just magic.

That images above? That's magic. They call it "oh those are just really good psykers," but that's MAGIC.

Especially when you look at Age of Sigmar, where pretty much everything that Chaos does in 40,000 is pretty confidently described as magic.

In 40,0000/Age of Sigmar, they are really just interchangeable words.

 

[Minigiant]

1. In the DC universe, Superman (at least in some incarnations) is immune and highly resistant to a LOT of things, but his vulnerability to MAGIC is one of his weaknesses. So you can shoot him with a nuke or blast him with a Firebolt (which is a superpower, not magic) and he is unharmed whereas a Firebolt (which is a spell cast by a magician, not a superpower) would affect him normally.

2. In the Marvel universe, Dr. Strange is a normal human with no super powers but who knows MAGIC. If he were in an area in which MAGIC was suppressed, he would be useless while the Fantastic Four wouldn't even notice something had happened. In that universe there is a distinction in power source between mutants, altered humans, and magic so much so that its a major source of plot. Humanity always seems to hate mutants but has no problem with the Hulk or Thor.

Comics often have Psychics and Magicians use different power sources and power mechanics.

Typically psionics or psychic powers are extremely limited in scope of abilities. Usually it only affecting minds, telekinsis, telepathy, extra senses, or creation of psychic constructs.