Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Mecheon]

What is this "Primal" magic source that's being talked about? That doesn't exist in 5e. You have arcane and divine magic in 5e. Isn't Primal, as a source, a 4e thing?

Primal as a 4E thing was the power source that encapsulated things that use spirits of the wild rather than gods. So, Druids and Barbarians (Especially totemic ones), along with Shamans, Wardens and partially Rangers

 

[Aldarc]

What is this "Primal" magic source that's being talked about? That doesn't exist in 5e. You have arcane and divine magic in 5e. Isn't Primal, as a source, a 4e thing?

Sure, it's a thing in 4e and Pathfinder 2, and while it does not formally exist in 5e, though there are hints of it, I find it a useful way to think about the druid. A druid's power can come from nature itself (or a nature god), whereas a cleric's power will come from a god.

And, as far as Savage Worlds go, sure, the core rules have rules for both psionics and magic. That's because SW is a settingless, generic system. You aren't supposed to play with all the rules at the same time. You use the SW rules to then build your setting. I mean, GURPS has rules for psionics and magic, but, that doesn't mean that GURPS Space uses magic or GURPS fantasy uses psionics.

This is ridiculous. Maybe not all rules, but arcane backgrounds? Yeah, that's certainly possible. The Savage World rules exist so you can build your setting to include as much as you want.

I'm fairly confident in standing on this hill. Not many (although there are a few) genre works, and outside of game books, virtually none, use both psionics and magic in the same setting. Which is where, I think, a lot of the conceptual problems of jamming them both into D&D comes from.

Savage Worlds: Rifts, Flash Gordon, and Shaintar (but psionics as "the Way" and arcane magic as "Sorcery"). These prominent Savage World settings have both.

 

[Hussar]

Wow, I say, "outside of game books" and you list three game books as a counter argument.

I'm bowing out of this one now. You're not even bothering to read what I'm writing and bolding too.

 

[Aldarc]

Wow, I say, "outside of game books" and you list three game books as a counter argument.

I'm bowing out of this one now. You're not even bothering to read what I'm writing and bolding too.

My apologies. You are welcome to bow out, if that's your desire, but there's a simple explanation that isn't accusing me of not reading what you wrote. I misunderstood what you meant by game books, since you were previous talking about the Savage Worlds core book. So I thought that you were talking about core game books and not necessarily setting books.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Precognition and Conceal Thoughts were lower level psionics powers. Sure Conjure Astral Construct could be any summoning spell, much like how Conjure Elemental, Conjure Fey, or Conjure Nature's Ally could be the same, except they're not.

"Mind stuff" is actually a pretty good start, though you may not think so, much as a druid design may be guided by notions of "nature stuff" or a cleric design guided by notions of "god stuff." It gives us a thematic core to work from. So what can psionists do with their minds? They can enhance the mind and senses of either themselves or others (e.g., precognition, telepathy, visions, etc.). They can likewise debuff the mind and senses of others. They can use their mind to enhance their body. They can manipulate objects and/or apply some forms of energy (e.g., force, psychic, astral/ectoplasm, etc.) with their mind. But we are generally dealing with the sort of things that we see psychics, telepaths, telekinetics, mystics, mesmerists, and such in various forms of fiction do.

Reliable telepathy and forming psychic links. Body control. Meditation. Various forms of projection. Empath powers.

One thing that would be worth exploring in the context of 5e would be manipulating with Concentration mechanics. If Concentration represents a mage focusing their mind on maintaining a spell, then how would or could a "mind mage" like a psion relate to it? Can psions concentrate better? Maybe on multiple things? Can psions help others concentrate better? How could psions interfere with the Concentration of their foes? Could they steal spells that others are Concentrating on? Can they gain advantage on actions or abilities when their foes are using Concentration spells?

Maybe psions could temporarily learn/steal spells from their foes that they see cast a spell. Maybe they could cause foes to forget spells that they cast. There's a lot of potential for the psion in being something of an anti-caster caster. And maybe this is why other casters say psions don't do magic or fear psions, because psions can play mind-games with their magical abilities. Clerics view it as blasphemy. Wizards view it as illogical (and "unfair").

Not saying that this is what I want the psion to be, merely brainstorming.

I want a psion, much like a person asking for a cleric should reasonably expect to get a cleric, and I want it to be able to fill its idiomatic class fantasy. If you are concerned about role-filling, then we should be talking about 4e and not 5e.

I'm not overly concerned with role filling, but I want to narrow it down to what people want. So, I'm approaching this from a perspective of what do we already have, and what do we actually need to add.

For example, spell stealing is the unique 17th ability of the Arcane Trickster

Spell Thief[/B]]
At 17th level, you gain the ability to magically steal the knowledge of how to cast a spell from another spellcaster.

Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. The DC equals your spell save DC. On a failed save, you negate the spell’s effect against you, and you steal the knowledge of the spell if it is at least 1st level and of a level you can cast (it doesn’t need to be a wizard spell). For the next 8 hours, you know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots. The creature can’t cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed.

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

So if you were to give that to a Psion, you would need to make sure it was a high level ability and consider how this effects the Arcane Trickster who previously was the only person capable of pulling off this feat.

The same with using Invisible Mage Hand as a minor Telekinesis. In fact, a lot of the Arcane Trickster abilities fit with what I could expect to see from a Psion

And, in that same vein, if I make this spell list based on the things you said and some of my own ideas, what do you think is missing from it? I know some of it is duplicated, I'm just grabbing from lists

Spoiler: Spells for Psions

Cantrip
Friends (Enchantment)
Message (Transmutation)
Minor Illusion (Illusion)
Vicious Mockery (Enchantment)
Guidance (Divination
Control Flames (Transmutation, X)
Mold Earth (Transmutation, X)
Shape Water (Transmutation, X)

1st
Bane (Enchantment)
Bless (Enchantment)
Cause Fear (Necromancy, X)
Catapult (Transmutation, X)
Charm Person (Enchantment)
Command (Enchantment)
Comprehend Languages (Divination, Ritual)
Dissonant Whispers (Enchantment)
Expeditious Retreat (Transmutation)
False Life (Necromancy)
Jump (Transmutation)
Longstrider (Transmutation)
Mage Armor (Abjuration)
Magic Missile (Evocation)
Heroism (Enchantment)
Sanctuary (Abjuration)
Shield (Abjuration)
Shield of Faith (Abjuration)
Sleep (Enchantment)
Tasha's Hideous Laughter (Enchantment)
Tenser’s Floating Disk (Conjuration, Ritual)
Unseen Servant (Conjuration, Ritual)

2nd
Aid (Abjuration)
Alter Self (Transmutation)
Augury (Divination, Ritual)
Blindness/Deafness (Necromancy)
Calm Emotions (Enchantment)
Crown of Madness (Enchantment)
Detect Thoughts (Divination)
Earthbind (Transmutation, X)
Enhance Ability (Transmutation)
Enlarge/Reduce (Transmutation)
Enthrall (Enchantment)
Hold Person (Enchantment)
Levitate (Transmutation)
Locate Object (Divination)
Mind Spike (Divination, X)
Mirror Image (Illusion)
Phantasmal Force (Illusion)
Pyrotechnics (Transmutation, X)
See Invisibility (Divination)
Shadow Blade (Illusion, X)
Suggestion (Enchantment)
Warding Wind (Evocation, X)
Zone of Truth (Enchantment)

3rd
Catnap (Enchantment)
Clairvoyance (Divination)
Enemies abound (Enchantment)
Fear (Illusion)
Fly (Transmutation)
Haste (Transmutation)
Hypnotic Pattern (Illusion)
Nondetection (Abjuration)
Protection from Energy (Abjuration)
Slow (Transmutation)
Sending (Evocation)
Tongues (Divination)

4th
Arcane Eye (Divination)
Charm Monster (Enchantment, X)
Compulsion (Enchantment)
Confusion (Enchantment)
Control Water (Transmutation)
Divination (Divination, Ritual)
Locate Creature (Divination)
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere (Evocation)
Phantasmal Killer (Illusion)
Stone Shape (Transmutation)
Stoneskin (Abjuration)
Freedom of Movement (Abjuration)

5th
Animate Objects (Transmutation)
Awaken (Transmutation)
Control Winds (Transmutation, X)
Dominate Person (Enchantment)
Dream (Illusion)
Geas (Enchantment)
Hold Monster (Enchantment)
Immolation (Evocation, X)
Legend Lore (Divination)
Modify Memory (Enchantment)
Rary’s Telepathic Bond (Divination, Ritual)
Scrying (Divination)
Skill Empowerment (Transmutation)
Synaptic Static (Enchantment)
Telekinesis (Transmutation)
Wall of Force (Evocation)

6th
Blade Barrier (Evocation)
Eyebite (Necromancy)
Globe of Invulnerability (Abjuration)
Investiture of Wind (Transmutation, X)
Mass Suggestion (Enchantment)
Mental prison (Illusion, X)
Move Earth (Transmutation)
Otto’s Irresistible Dance (Enchantment)
Soul Cage (Necromancy, X)
True Seeing (Divination)



7th
Forcecage (Evocation)
Power Word Pain (Enchantment, X)
Regenerate (Transmutation)
Reverse Gravity (Transmutation)
Whirlwind (Evocation, X)

8th
Control Weather (Transmutation)
Dominate Monster (Enchantment)
Earthquake (Evocation)
Feeblemind (Enchantment)
Glibness (Transmutation)
Illusory Dragon (Illusion, X)
Maddening Darkness (Evocation, X)
Maze (Conjuration)
Mind Blank (Abjuration)
Power Word Stun (Enchantment)
Telepathy (Evocation)

9th
Astral Projection (Necromancy)
Foresight (Divination)
Invulnerability (Abjuration, X)
Power Word Heal (Evocation)
Power Word Kill (Enchantment)
Psychic scream (Enchantment)
Time Stop (Transmutation)
Weird (Illusion)

 

[Jd Smith1]

I won't allow Psi powers in a fantasy game. I wouldn't mind seeing rules for then in context of a sci-fi setting conversion.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I won't allow Psi powers in a fantasy game. I wouldn't mind seeing rules for then in context of a sci-fi setting conversion.

Have to admit I lean this way, too.

D&D has an "...and the kitchen sink" aspect that I don't like.

 

[Maxperson]

Have to admit I lean this way, too.

D&D has an "...and the kitchen sink" aspect that I don't like.

Why would you not like that? The whole point of a kitchen sink approach is that you use what you like from the sink and don't use the stuff you don't like. Then the group over there does the same. If you don't use psionics and they do, no harm no foul at either table.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Why would you not like that? The whole point of a kitchen sink approach is that you use what you like from the sink and don't use the stuff you don't like. Then the group over there does the same. If you don't use psionics and they do, no harm no foul at either table.

Two reasons:

1. Because games that try to be everything tend to not be as elegantly designed as games that try to do fewer things very well. But you're not going to agree with that, and it's unprovable, so...

2. Because it spoils the game for me, at least to some extent, when somebody shows up at the table with their dual-rapier and hand-crossbow wielding Aarakokra Warlord/Psion and says, "It's DDAL legal."

 

[Maxperson]

Two reasons:

1. Because games that try to be everything tend to not be as elegantly designed as games that try to do fewer things very well. But you're not going to agree with that, and it's unprovable, so...

2. Because it spoils the game for me, at least to some extent, when somebody shows up at the table with their dual-rapier and hand-crossbow wielding Aarakokra Warlord/Psion and says, "It's DDAL legal."

I guess if you subject yourself to AL...

I won't play AL, so it's never been an issue for me.