D&D 5E 2 year campaign down the drain?

[Pulakhell]

This may contain SPOILERS for SKT. If you haven't played it or are a player in my session PLEASE STOP READING NOW!!!!



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Hey all! I'm a Dm for about 3 years now and have been doing a 5e run of SKT with some friends. We started as a group of 5 and grew over 2 years to a group of 8. Through that time my adventurers were going through the story making mostly good decisions. It was some players first D&D campaign so it took some getting used to as far as being in a world with repercussions. Initially our Drow Rogue stabbed and killed a horse because he thought the owner was being unfair to the player. Needless to say the group used all of their gold to buy the horse and left the town. Since this was early in the campaign they watched over him with caution (and all being RL friends we didn't want to kick him out of the campaign).

Well the campaign went on and the group went through the adventure. There was a point when the Drow Rogue was bit by a werewolf and the party needed to leave him in the service of a priest while they gathered the materials to cure the Lycanthropy. After he was cured, and realized the party went out of their way to help him, his demeanor changed. He began working with the group instead of against them. This continued until one of my longest friends, who I might add is a player that tries to test the limit of the game world, joined the game as a Bard. As a side note he was the first person I played D&D with years prior (I knew the way he played but decided to involve him because I figured he would see the way my game was being run and act accordingly with the players at the table). Of course that decision turned out to bite me in the ass as he began dismantling the game piece by piece. He began taking over all aspects of the game, when it came to decision making, what the optimal path would be, theft, lying and cheating whenever possible. He began to bully the other players into following his path and recruited the Drow Rogue to be his side kick. He would continue to crack jokes, not listen to narrative, use his phone and get drunk at the table. I would joke with my other players that "Maybe this session the Bard would mysteriously vanish" hoping one of them would speak out about what he was doing. But that never happened. He was sabotaging the game and I didn't want to kick him out of the campaign because I thought it would put a strain on our RL friendship. I didn't know what to do.

This went on for a few sessions until one night after the session the rogue, my wife and I had a talk with him. He claimed he didn't realize he was causing such discourse at the table and began to try to blame others. I know I was also to blame because I was creating this atmosphere of "DM v. Player" every session and not addressing the real issue. Eventually we came to an agreement that he had 4 levels of "Madness" and he needed to be cured in order to stop acting out. The party was able to conclude that the Bard was not acting right and they took him to a wizard to restore his sanity. This seemingly worked and we continued through the story with minimal bumps in the road.

My latest session was tonight, where the party needed to sneak onto a gambling riverboat dressed as noblemen/noblewomen, to find information about where the missing giant king was being held. The players tried to convince everyone that the Barbarian was nobility to gain access. They continued through the town and purchased fine/noble clothing and waited till the evening to board the ship. When they asked me if they could bring weapons and gear on the ship, of course I said "The guards wouldn't allow such things on the ship". There was an hour long discussion about how they were going to go about this and the players came up with this plan: They would put their weapons in a bag of holding, and carry their armor to the ship. When the guards told them they couldn't bring the armor on, they would try to deceive the guards (Which succeeded) that the inn was not secure enough for nobility and they would pay to keep their belongings on the ship (2g per article), they also bluffed what was in the bag of holding by pulling out gold and convincing the guard that It was their heavy coin purse. While the Drow Rogue Slight of Handed 2 daggers on his person... "just in case".

They were allowed on board and then the night began. The boat was filled with nobles, guards and the NPCs that they needed to interrogate. The group introduced themselves to the Lord who was in charge of the establishment as well as his bodyguard. The Lords only purpose for running such an operation was to further his rank politically, so when the Barbarian failed his Deception check to show interest in what the Lord is doing, he immediately lost interest in the groups affairs and told the guards to keep their eye on them. They tried to speak to the Lord and bodyguard again but to no avail because they kept rolling below DC10 on their checks. (Now looking back I feel like I should have just fudged the reactions so they didn't get to the point I'm about to describe) So they devised plan for the Druid and our other Arcane Trickster Rogue to infiltrate the room where they knew the Lords chamber to be. The Druid shape shifted to a fly, while also casting Pass Without Trace and the Arcane Trickster Rogue cast Invisibility. They make it to the room, without trying to check if the Lord was in there or not, and walk in. The Lord WAS in there and was startled. For some reason the Arcane Trickster Rogue began to throw books on the floor (I guess to scare him), to which he ran downstairs to his Bodyguard for help. She accompanied him upstairs, all while the Druid and Arcane Trickster Rogue stayed in the room to search it for any information. The Lord and Bodyguard got back to see the room has been gone through. The bodyguard casts Detect Thoughts and detected the Druids thoughts as he tried to flee as a fly. This spiraled the entire night into chaos.

The Arcane Trickster Rogue picks up a rapier in the Lords room and tried to attack the bodyguard. While this was going on the Druid shape shifted into a Polar Bear and killed the Lord in one attack. (The lord had all of the information about the disappearance of the Giant Lord) All of the guards at this point, knowing to keep an eye on the players who were acting weird the entire time on the ship, began to run to the sound of a giant Polar Bear roar on the second floor of the ship and needless to say the party manages to kill all but one guard, the captain and the bodyguard that all jumped overboard. The only PC that thought to use non lethal damage was our Fighter, to which he knocked out 2 guards and saved them for questioning. Meanwhile all of the nobles were terrified of this act aggression thinking they were going to be killed next. Our "quick thinking" Drow Rogue decided to use Deception to tell all of the guests that this was all the work of the cult of Elemental Evil by saying "Don't worry! We will release you all. Just remember this was the work of the Prince of Evil Airs!" Though he thought he was being witty, he didn't realize he was calling at least 2 of the PCs by their REAL names in front of all of the nobles! While this was all happening they decided to search the room of the Lord, to which I let them find his diary (That I made up) so they could figure out where the hell they needed to go to finish this campaign! They left the boat and at that point I called it a night.

Now here's where I am mentally. WHAT DO I DO?! I mean I try to run my game with integrity and logic. I ask myself "What would happen if this decision was made" then go with it. All of the decisions that the PCs made led them to this point with my thought process. But was I too harsh on those decisions? I feel like if I just let them succeed these rolls then they would think the story doesn't matter and not take anything seriously. Now I'm left in this story where our party murdered 4 guards, a Lord, kidnapped at least 50 nobles and 30 commoners, and commandeered a ship outside a major trade city! I mean wont they be wanted criminals now in every major city? The witnesses saw their faces and they heard 2 of their names. Any advice on how to salvage this campaign... at least until the story is over?!

 

[Prakriti]

There's a lot to unpack here. Looks like there are three issues:

(1) You have a problem player (the Bard).
(2) You asked your players to make skill checks that they might have needed to succeed in order to advance the plot.
(3) The party might or might not need to face repercussions for their murderous behavior.

Point 1 doesn't sound like it's a problem anymore, since you talked to the problem player and his behavior has improved.

Point 2 is a complicated issue. Since you're running an adventure path, you need to keep the players "on track" to some degree, which is a good argument for not asking the players to make skill checks that they need to succeed in order to advance the plot. On the other hand, your players got around their failure anyway by confronting the noble in his private quarters, so no harm done, right? Unfortunately, this led to...

Point 3, your party killing a few NPCs. This, for me, is a fairly straightforward problem. As a DM, I would ask myself: Do the players feel that they should get away with what they did? If so, then I'll go along with it too, even if it stretches my own suspension of disbelief, because it's more important that the fiction make sense to the players than it is for it to make sense to me. So the party crashed a party, caused some mayhem, then made its clever escape, never to be seen again... If that's the story the players want to tell, then so be it.

Unfortunately you have eight (8!) players, so there might not be consensus on this point. Some players might think that the party deserves to suffer some consequences for their criminality, others might think that the party handled the situation cleverly enough to deceive the witnesses and cover their tracks. Either way, it all comes back to this question: What will be the most fun for everyone? If you can answer that question, then you'll know what to do.

 

[SlyGallant]

Sorry, don't have a lot of time to flesh this idea out right now, but if you like it you can ask me for more details and I will flesh it out a little more.

For something like this, I would give the players an "out" if they were smart enough to use it. A sort of side quest to get them out of the mess they have created.

They don't just get a free pass, so they still take the game seriously, but you can guide them in the direction of the side quest so you don't need to throw 2 years old campaign down the drain.

For example, have the players be legitimately outlaws, so they can see the consequences of their actions, but at the same time have a group of dopplegangers, (or changelings, whatever fits your narrative better) that use the identities of known criminals to commit crimes. That way when people start investigating the crime, it seems more likely to have been committed by the known criminals the dopplegangers impersonate than had they picked random identities

This is relevant, because if your heroes become wanted criminals, the dopplegangers may end up using their identities to rob a bank, you're players find out, unmask the dopplegangers, annnnnnd pin their other crimes on the dopplegangers too.

I find side quests like this are labor intensive enough that the players want to avoid it, but still fun enough that they don't feel like they are being "punished" (because who wants to take 3 or so hours out of their busy schedule just to feel like they are getting punished for "not playing the game right"). The actions still have consequences that have weight, and if "murder hoboing" becomes a problem, you can have a conversation with your players outside of the campaign.
Sorry, that's all I have time for. I'll check back and see what you think of something like this later. I'd you are partial to the idea then I can help expand it

 

[Flamestrike]

Im presuming they have Good alignments here.

Why on earth didnt you hit the pause button before they went Kharn the Betrayer and started murdering everyone, and strongly suggest that murder is an evil act, it's out of character for a Good person to do, and if they wish to continue with their actions (they're allowed to of course if that's how they see their character acting) there will be alignment and story ramifications that flow from those actions?

Now that the horse has bolted, you need to have a session Zero chat with your group again about alignment. There seems to be a massive disconnect between what you consider evil, and what they do, and the heroic style of play you're looking for, and their murderhobo antics.

Once that is out of the way, give them the option to announce they all really only used non lethal tactics in the encounter, award the Fighter inspiration for actually doing so, and play it like they simply knocked everyone out and ran. Anyone that sticks to their guns about murdering the NPCs and doesnt want to retcon it into non lethal damage, change their alignment to Evil immediately.

From there, find another way to get them the information they need (someone who witnessed the incident and has a grudge against the NPCs, sends word he wants to meet and talk?). Also have word of their stuff-up get around, and have important NPCs they know remind them of 'the incident' every now and then, with a disapproving shake of the head, and the occasional disadvantage to Social skill rolls.

 

[Bawylie]

To compartmentalize this: there are no in-game solutions for out-of-game problems. So if you have personal issues with players, you’ve got to deal with them (as you did with the Drow player) on a personal level.

In game, there’s some natural consequences for kidnapping and murder. I wonder if that’s a game you want to play. If not, that’s a personal issue. But if you’re okay moving forward with this situation, then how?

I propose you start tracking two separate issues and rate them on a scale of 1 to 10.

The first thing I suggest you track is “The Infamy of the Riverboat Incident.” And it’s at 10 out of 10. This means everyone knows they did it, nobody wants to deal with them, work with them, or pay them. They get the watch called on them regularly and all that good stuff. BUT - the rating goes down every time they do some OTHER deed that’s Good. Like a quest. Whatever. And it goes UP when they get up to Riverboat style shenanigans. At about 7, people are no longer hostile but they’re deeply unfriendly. At 5, they can shop and stay at the inns, and not get run out of town. At 3, their bad reputation merely comes up in coversations and at 1 it’s all in the past. You don’t tell them the rating. You just track it and play the reactions.

The other thing you should track is the amount of money on their bounty. Again 10 out of 10 to start. It’s enough money that bounty hunters are a serious problem. Wanted posters are everywhere. There’s always like a party of rangers about 2 hours behind them and they interfere whenever the party stays in place too long. The rating goes down as they pay restitutions. Of course they’ll need an interaction with a cleric or a lord to tell them how much they’d need to pay off. But as they pay down their bail or whatever, the pursuit drops. At 10 they’re pursued everywhere. At 7 bounty hunters won’t follow into dungeons. At 5 they won’t chase through the wilderness. At 3 they’re only in cities (not villages or towns). And at 1, they can go back into town.

Why two tracks? One is for social interactions only. Reputation and that stuff. The other is to complicate adventuring only. They should both be annoying. But the party can’t know the numbers or the rating. They can just know how the world changes in reaction to their deeds.

Anyhow, that’s my 2 cents. Your whole thing seems straight out of Red Dead Redemption 2, btw. So that’s fun. And that’s sort of where I got the response idea.

 

[Shiroiken]

I'm keeping with @Prakriti in that you have 3 real issues.

1) Was the problem player (bard) the instigator of this plan and/or suggest the murderfest? If so, you might still have a problem with said player.

2) Unless the adventure specifically called for these checks, you made a very common DM blunder: you set the plot on the fate of a die roll. If the adventure specifically called for those checks, I assume there was supposed to be alternate routes to gather the information. Since you fell back to the diary, they have the information, but at a high cost (problem 3)

3) Holy crap this is a mess. I don't know anything about the AP, but this is going to ruin the characters in civilized lands. The players have only a few options: kill everyone (which I'm surprised your group hadn't already decided this), leave on a longboat for shore after disabling the craft (leaving everyone alive), somehow erase the memory of everyone on board (probably requiring wish level magic!) or something inventive I haven't considered. Pretty much all of these are going to have severe consequences, but the players deserve it for their choice of actions.

If they kill everyone, this solves most of their problems. They could set the ship on fire after everyone's dead, then use the longboat to get away. Most people won't have any idea what happened, and most of the evidence will be destroyed. Perhaps a few people were at the docks when they boarded and know they should be dead, but that's up to you. However, as everyone would understand, this slaughter of innocent bystanders is a heinously evil act, and should have severe consequences with clerics/paladins/Divine Souls/Celestial Warlock. Even outside of that, this is something that would weigh heavily upon the conscience of any good (and most neutral) people. Making them make Wisdom saves to fully get a full night's sleep (to get a long rest) until they can atone might be a good punishment.

If they leave everyone alive, they're going to be hunted for the rest of their lives. Huge rewards are going to be sent out with descriptions of the party. Bounty hunters should periodically show up during their travels. They won't be able to go into any town or city (and villages after a while) to resupply or get information, unless they successfully disguise themselves. Even their families and trusted allies will require persuasion/deception to aid them due to the danger involved (see DMG).

If they can pull off some powerful magic to make everyone forget (I have no idea what level they are), then they might be able to pull this off. This is the "best" solution, but by far the hardest, because they have to have it right now. Unless they have a Ring of Wishes, I really doubt this is going to be an option.

As for other options, you're going to have to figure it out on your own. My only suggestion is that this is going to have pretty severe consequences, and you should base those logically upon what they do. You might want to give them a little leeway, since you kinda screwed up, but they chose violence and seizing the ship, so they hold a lot of responsibility too.

 

[Li Shenron]

Nice story.

First of all, I don't see anything wrong in what YOU did as a DM. However, if I may say something about the first part with the Bard player, I don't understand why YOU, not as the DM but as his friend, didn't tell him anything at the table and just waited for other players to speak up. If I am one player in a game where other people are friends with each other but I am just an acquaintance, I do not criticize how others are playing, and I am certainly NOT going to stand up and accuse another player of being a d0rk in front of everyone, because I think it's unpolite. I would shut up until the game is over, then make my discomfort known and be noted, and if the behaviour continues I would probably just leave the group. But if I am a FRIEND of the d0rk, then I certainly feel like it's my duty to speak quickly and let him know in front of anyone, it doesn't matter whether I am the DM or a player. Anyway, you sorted it out eventually, but you might have avoided a prolonged period of players irritation and your friend's blaming others (after all, he probably thought the others were ok with his behaviour since they let him continue for many sessions).

The second situation on the river boat is definitely not your fault in the least. Unfortunately I think it's a by-product of the culture of resolving everything with combat, so a lot of players automatically think that when their main plan has failed, they just had to fight.

I am going to say it clearly, that personally I think this is bad roleplaying. I don't know the story of this adventure, but from your description it sounds like this Lord and their guards are NOT the "evil guys" of the story. Maybe they are evil on their own, but still they are not the kind of immediate threat which must be dealt with force. Roleplaying is about immersing yourself in the fantasy situation, as if you were the player characters. Obviously they can choose to play evil characters if they want to, are their PCs evil? If they are, then their roleplay was appropriate and should simple expect to live with the consequences, but I think you would have mentioned if that was the case. If the PCs are not evil, the players should have asked themselves what would the PCs do, not what is "more convenient" for the players whose plan just failed and just kill everyone because it's easier than thinking again.

As for the adventure, if you let them find the clue they needed to continue, then the adventure isn't over, but there is no fundamental problem in the fact that sometimes the PCs FAIL an adventure. OTOH, I would certainly make them wanted as criminals by the authorities from now on, and take that into account for the rest of the campaign until resolved. If you don't make it matter what the PCs do, then just be aware that your game becomes more like a kids' game.

 

[pemerton]

WHAT DO I DO?! I mean I try to run my game with integrity and logic. I ask myself "What would happen if this decision was made" then go with it. All of the decisions that the PCs made led them to this point with my thought process. But was I too harsh on those decisions? I feel like if I just let them succeed these rolls then they would think the story doesn't matter and not take anything seriously. Now I'm left in this story where our party murdered 4 guards, a Lord, kidnapped at least 50 nobles and 30 commoners, and commandeered a ship outside a major trade city! I mean wont they be wanted criminals now in every major city? The witnesses saw their faces and they heard 2 of their names. Any advice on how to salvage this campaign... at least until the story is over?!

I don't know anything about the module you're running. But the actual situation you describe sounds pretty awesome to me. Your players declared actions as they thought made sense given the fiction; you resolved them; the upshot is a pretty interesting situation - the PCs are"terrorists" who have control of a ship and a number of hostages. There's heaps of possibility there for future play.

I'm happy to elaborate if you're interested.

 

[Flamestrike]

If they kill everyone, this solves most of their problems.

Is what a thoroughly and irredeemably evil PC would say.

Which I would point out to any players spit-balling such an idea out of character.

However, as everyone would understand, this slaughter of innocent bystanders is a heinously evil act, and should have severe consequences with clerics/paladins/Divine Souls/Celestial Warlock.

Why? None of those classes have any requirement to be Good aligned, and mass murder fits within a number of Paladin oaths just fine (Vengeance and Conquest at a minimum).

Even outside of that, this is something that would weigh heavily upon the conscience of any good (and most neutral) people.

You're talking mass murder here, and for no appreciable reason other than convenience and 'leaving no witnesses'. That's not something that would simply 'weigh on the conscience' of a morally good person; it's something no morally good person would even contemplate. Full stop. Even a Neutral person (who might contemplate such a heinous act) would never actually do it; because they're not evil mass murderers.

IMG, any PC that tried to convince others to slaughter the whole lot, or (God help me) actually murdered everyone, would get a warning before hand, and then if they carried on would have their alignments changed to Evil on the spot (if they weren't evil already).

 

[pogre]

I don't know anything about the module you're running. But the actual situation you describe sounds pretty awesome to me. Your players declared actions as they thought made sense given the fiction; you resolved them; the upshot is a pretty interesting situation - the PCs are"terrorists" who have control of a ship and a number of hostages. There's heaps of possibility there for future play.

I'm happy to elaborate if you're interested.

That's what I'm talking about! Let's get this thing off the rails and flying into the crazy ditch. Let it roll like the magnificent train wreck that it is. Trust me - it will be more memorable than following the A.P.