D&D 5E Hex Shenanigans

[jaelis]

Yup, I or one of the players would explain it to you if you didn't seem able to figure it out on your own.

Well, to the point at hand: is it fair to say that your basic objection to the chicken thing is that you don't think the warlock character has sufficient in-game understanding of the hex mechanics to do something like this?

 

[jasper]

.......

I actually had this happen in a game. The player literally had the character throw himself off a mountain to get to the bottom. The only thing that made it even marginally acceptable was that he was playing a troll and, short of rolling through a campfire, legitimately knew the fall couldn't kill him. But it was still an absurd action ........

Troll running

He was just a troll and he surely shook with fright.
He checked treasure and larder too!
He had to sit and listen to those awful pcs grow near.
He wasn’tt gonna bother those adventures none.

Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
He ain't gonna bother those adventures none.

"Is everybody ready?" cried the mage starting a fireball.
Our hero feebly answered, "NO!", and then they fired him up.
He jumped from the cliff without a look.
And He ain't gonna bother those adventures none.

Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
He ain't gonna adventured none.

He counted long, he counted loud,
he waited for his initiative to be counted down.
The guts spilled out and wrapped around his legs.
And He ain't gonna adventured none.

Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
He ain't gonna bother those adventures none.

He hit the ground, the sound was "Splat," his blood went spurting high.
The pcs were heard to say, "A helluva way to run."
He lay there rolling 'round in the welter of his gore.
And He ain't gonna bother those adventurers none.

Chorus:
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
Gory, gory, what a hell of way to run.
He ain't gonna bother those adventurers none.

There was blood upon the floor, there were brains upon the hat.
Intestines were a-dangling from his three piece suit.
He was a mess, they picked him up and poured him from his boots.
And He ain't gonna bother adventures none.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well, to the point at hand: is it fair to say that your basic objection to the chicken thing is that you don't think the warlock character has sufficient in-game understanding of the hex mechanics to do something like this?

No. That's not it at all.

Does the warlock think he can hex a chicken? Sure.

Would a warlock carry around a chicken coop so that he can precast hex every day, and then do so maintaining hex all day every day despite the fact that it only marginally benefits him a tiny fraction of the time? Only in a fantasy parody, IMO.

That's my issue. I don't mind games having elements of humor, but draw the line before the point where they become absurdist. For me (and likely all of my players) the hex chicken is absurd. The warlock doing it is no longer a character, but rather a caricature. I'll grant you, it is at the shallow end of the absurdity pool, but still sufficient to disrupt my enjoyment of the game. That there are certainly more absurd actions a player could undertake doesn't really make it better.

Frankly, if the warlock is in a real bind and he does this once, I don't mind it. If he really is in a situation where he needs absolutely every edge he can get and hexes a chicken, it doesn't bother me at all. It only bothers me if he's doing this constantly.

If John McClain has his gun drawn when he's hunting down terrorists that have taken over a skyscraper, that cool. However, if we join him on a random day as he's strolling to the park with some friends, and he has his gun drawn, then it feels disjointed. If we see him later when he's visiting a deli with those friends, and nothing out of the norm has happened, and he still has the gun drawn we start wondering if this is a dream sequence or something because it doesn't make sense.

That's the reason.

 

[jaelis]

No. That's not it at all.

darn.

Does the warlock think he can hex a chicken? Sure.

Would a warlock carry around a chicken coop so that he can precast hex every day, and then do so maintaining hex all day every day despite the fact that it only marginally benefits him a tiny fraction of the time? Only in a fantasy parody, IMO.

I get from this that the issue is that, in-game, the warlock would have to deal with hauling all these chickens around and there's no way he would think it was worth the trouble. I'll buy that, and indeed the logistics of making it a regular thing seem daunting.

Frankly, if the warlock is in a real bind and he does this once, I don't mind it. If he really is in a situation where he needs absolutely every edge he can get and hexes a chicken, it doesn't bother me at all. It only bothers me if he's doing this constantly.

So it is some combination of the in-world inconvenience and the amount of benefit accrued? Would you have an issue with a warlock in his home base who kept chickens and ate one every day? Lets say you were a player and a DM set up an NPC like that.

If John McClain has his gun drawn when he's hunting down terrorists that have taken over a skyscraper, that cool. However, if we join him on a random day as he's strolling to the park with some friends, and he has his gun drawn, then it feels disjointed. If we see him later when he's visiting a deli with those friends, and nothing out of the norm has happened, and he still has the gun drawn we start wondering if this is a dream sequence or something because it doesn't make sense.

I don't buy the analogy you're trying to make here. If I had an invisible gun that I didn't have to hold in my hands, and I was in a dangerous dungeon hunting down monsters, the I imagine I sure would have it ready all the time.

(And furthermore, every time I put the gun away I had to unload it.)

 

[NotAYakk]

No. That's not it at all.

Does the warlock think he can hex a chicken? Sure.

Would a warlock carry around a chicken coop so that he can precast hex every day, and then do so maintaining hex all day every day despite the fact that it only marginally benefits him a tiny fraction of the time? Only in a fantasy parody, IMO.

So the Warlock knows that if they sacrifice an animal every day, in the event of a lethal fight happening before a trivial one, their ability to cast spells is twice as large in that fight.

Would a professional athlete, if there was a 1 hour thing they could do at the start of a day that would literally double one part of their performance (ie, maybe a football player, and after doing it they can ... jump twice as high and as far?), do you think they'd do it? How about on "game days" where their performance matters?

Going from 1 spell slot to 2 spell slots usable in a fight is a large thing for a level 2-10 warlock. Alternatively, going from 1d10+3-5 (8.5-10.5) to 1d10+1d6+3-5 damage (12-14) damage on EB is a huge boost.

A quarterback, do a 2 second meditation and then have an hour nap, in exchange throws the ball 33% faster? Or gets to dodge one extra quarterback sack?

Booyah, yes, they'd do it. Maybe not on vacation days, but on practice days? Even pickup fun games, they'd probably do it.

 

[Fanaelialae]

darn.


I get from this that the issue is that, in-game, the warlock would have to deal with hauling all these chickens around and there's no way he would think it was worth the trouble. I'll buy that, and indeed the logistics of making it a regular thing seem daunting.


So it is some combination of the in-world inconvenience and the amount of benefit accrued? Would you have an issue with a warlock in his home base who kept chickens and ate one every day? Lets say you were a player and a DM set up an NPC like that.


I don't buy the analogy you're trying to make here. If I had an invisible gun that I didn't have to hold in my hands, and I was in a dangerous dungeon hunting down monsters, the I imagine I sure would have it ready all the time.

(And furthermore, every time I put the gun away I had to unload it.)

A chicken coop in your home base? It's still really gamist, regardless. Why is this warlock so paranoid that he feels the need to constantly maintain hex when he's in his stronghold? Is it built on top of a hellmouth?

Unless your games never involve any travel, not every day will be a dungeon delve. In my games, several days of travel can pass without any dangerous encounters.

You do have to hold the gun in your hand. It's just an invisible third hand we call concentration. You can only hold one thing in that hand. If you end up casting a different concentration spell before needing hex, you'll drop hex anyway. If someone hits you before you use hex, you may drop hex anyway. It makes perfect sense to do this all the time if you think of the character as a bunch of stats. IMO, it makes no sense if you think of the character as a person.

 

[Mort]

If John McClain has his gun drawn when he's hunting down terrorists that have taken over a skyscraper, that cool. However, if we join him on a random day as he's strolling to the park with some friends, and he has his gun drawn, then it feels disjointed. If we see him later when he's visiting a deli with those friends, and nothing out of the norm has happened, and he still has the gun drawn we start wondering if this is a dream sequence or something because it doesn't make sense.

That's the reason.

Lots of things can be taken to absurd extremes, carrying around a chicken coop - as you said.

But say the party is tracking something dangerous near a farm, and about to take a short rest anyway. The warlock goes "give me a second," grabs a chicken and sacrifices it right before the short rest (and puts up Hex in anticipation of the big fight). I think even by your own criteria (John McClane hunting terrorists) that's ok?

It's all about the context and execution.

 

[Fanaelialae]

So the Warlock knows that if they sacrifice an animal every day, in the event of a lethal fight happening before a trivial one, their ability to cast spells is twice as large in that fight.

Would a professional athlete, if there was a 1 hour thing they could do at the start of a day that would literally double one part of their performance (ie, maybe a football player, and after doing it they can ... jump twice as high and as far?), do you think they'd do it? How about on "game days" where their performance matters?

Going from 1 spell slot to 2 spell slots usable in a fight is a large thing for a level 2-10 warlock. Alternatively, going from 1d10+3-5 (8.5-10.5) to 1d10+1d6+3-5 damage (12-14) damage on EB is a huge boost.

A quarterback, do a 2 second meditation and then have an hour nap, in exchange throws the ball 33% faster? Or gets to dodge one extra quarterback sack?

Booyah, yes, they'd do it. Maybe not on vacation days, but on practice days? Even pickup fun games, they'd probably do it.

I dispute that it doubles the warlock's performance. If you use hex then you probably use an enhanced agonizing blast. That's your bread and butter. The spell slots are nice, but almost an afterthought in many cases.

 

[Dausuul]

Would a warlock carry around a chicken coop so that he can precast hex every day, and then do so maintaining hex all day every day despite the fact that it only marginally benefits him a tiny fraction of the time? Only in a fantasy parody, IMO.

That's my issue. I don't mind games having elements of humor, but draw the line before the point where they become absurdist.

Would a warlock ritually sacrifice an animal to their patron before venturing into a dangerous ruin full of monsters, in order to gain a small but significant benefit?

I mean, I definitely agree that it can be played in a silly way and I would not want that kind of silliness at the gaming table. But it doesn't have to be played like that. If I were playing a warlock who did this, I would choose an animal that's thematically appropriate to my patron and pact, and add a bit of ritual to the whole thing. "Dark Lord, I bring blood and death, seeking your favor. If my offering pleases you, let your curse be laid upon my enemies."

From the DM's perspective, I would consider the balance implications of allowing this, as well as the incentives it sets up for PC behavior. Taking all that into account, I don't see a problem here and I'd let it roll, as long as the warlock player didn't turn the whole thing into a big joke.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Lots of things can be taken to absurd extremes, carrying around a chicken coop - as you said.

But say the party is tracking something dangerous near a farm, and about to take a short rest anyway. The warlock goes "give me a second," grabs a chicken and sacrifices it right before the short rest (and puts up Hex in anticipation of the big fight). I think even by your own criteria (John McClane hunting terrorists) that's ok?

It's all about the context and execution.

Yup, context matters.

It's about routinely gaming the system to eke out a marginal advantage, whether or not you actually need it, that's the problem.

Would a warlock ritually sacrifice an animal to their patron before venturing into a dangerous ruin full of monsters, in order to gain a small but significant benefit?

I mean, I definitely agree that it can be played in a silly way and I would not want that kind of silliness at the gaming table. But it doesn't have to be played like that. If I were playing a warlock who did this, I would choose an animal that's thematically appropriate to my patron and pact, and add a bit of ritual to the whole thing. "Dark Lord, I bring blood and death, seeking your favor. If my offering pleases you, let your curse be laid upon my enemies."

From the DM's perspective, I would consider the balance implications of allowing this, as well as the incentives it sets up for PC behavior. Taking all that into account, I don't see a problem here and I'd let it roll, as long as the warlock player didn't turn the whole thing into a big joke.

Like @Mort said, context matters.

Doing it before venturing into a dangerous ruin? Sure, I think I'd be okay with that.

Doing it every day regardless of circumstances? That's absurd.