D&D 5E 4-Element monks are the only monk archetype that excels against flying enemies

[Asisreo]

IF you just happen to roll a Natural 20, and IF you just happen to have all your Ki available, and want to blow it all in one hit.

Not exactly something I personally would ever bank on, and that's before you consider FotFS gives you a 10' reach. Not exactly a 'ranged' attack.

Uh, yeah. That's how crit fishing works. There's no guarantee that the paladin still has his highest level spellslot, he just saves it if that's his strategy. It's assumed your crit-fishing on purpose

Fire Snakes gives you a range of 15 ft unless you're a bugbear where your reach is 20ft. It increases your reach by 10', it doesn't put your reach at 10'

 

[FarBeyondC]

I don't think you're picking up what I'm putting down. None of these options actually do as good for your monk as proning and bringing a flying creature within range. Sun Soul doesn't get Sunburst until level 11 and it's pretty bad per-ki cost. Kensei is just being a monk with good range, that's fine but it doesn't exactly counter my point.

Unless you're bringing a flying creature within range of more people than just yourself, doing so is an absolute waste of time and ki points; keeping at range and killing the flying creature at range is almost always a safer (if slower) strategy.

Basic Searing Sunburst is free.

Radiant Sun Bolts is just as good (ignoring Stunning Strike) as physically attacking (you get the same number of attacks as using your fists or a weapon, including a equivalent to Flurry of Blows at the same cost as Flurry of Blows) at the same range FoUA / WW operates at.

Being a monk that's better at range (and at real ranges) than a normal monk with no cost is what I'd call excelling against flying enemies, which would be a direct counter to the title of the thread.

Knocking a creature out that's using a spell is possible with a 4-Element monk. It's called Clench of the North Wind and it automatically breaks concentration at range.

Clench of the North Wind is humanoid only.

I'm curious, have you looked in the monster manual to check how many creatures fit that description? All dragons eventually get with 20ft of a character. A wyvern gets within 5 ft. Pegasus and Perytons as well. All flying beasts. Animated weapons. Etc. Check them out. Even if they have flyby, the monk can ready an action for when they get close.

No dragon worth mentioning ever needs to get any closer to a character / group of characters than their breath weapon's range + half their movement speed. Pride or other circumstances may want them to do otherwise, however.

Wyverns are arguably not worth expending ki points over (just shoot them to death with a ranged weapon or- if you must- ready stunning fist for when it gets close). Pegasi, Perytons, and most other flying beasts are absolutely not worth spending ki points on, though admittedly something like a roc would be worth trying to prone.

Flying swords and animated objects either hover or can't fly, so trying to prone them is pointless.

Like, I'm not so worried about the damage at range, as much as I am about the fact that your ranged capabilities will always be worse than your melee capabilities as a monk by design. You don't want to just reach your enemy, you want to bring them down.

The lack of the amazing Stunning Fist is a big drawback to going ranged as a monk, yes, but otherwise it's almost trivially easy to make a monk as good (or better) at range as they are at melee.

 

[Asisreo]

Unless you're bringing a flying creature within range of more people than just yourself, doing so is an absolute waste of time and ki points; keeping at range and killing the flying creature at range is almost always a safer (if slower) strategy.

Assuming you have teammates, of course. Even if you don't have any other melee teammates, you can easily force them into a position where they must take an OA stun strike. If you readies your action to just before they leave your reach to WW, it knocks them prone & you get to act on it next turn with advantage.

Radiant Sun Bolts is just as good (ignoring Stunning Strike) as physically attacking (you get the same number of attacks as using your fists or a weapon, including a equivalent to Flurry of Blows at the same cost as Flurry of Blows) at the same range FoUA / WW operates at.

There's damage, yes, but where's the riders? Proning an enemy can be costly to that enemy, they have disadvantage on attacks against you and you have advantage with melee attacks against them.

Being a monk that's better at range (and at real ranges) than a normal monk with no cost is what I'd call excelling against flying enemies, which would be a direct counter to the title of the thread.

That's called compensating for flying enemies, not excelling. The damage output is okay but I think you fail to realize that proning a target is good for other characters as well as your own.

Clench of the North Wind is humanoid only.

You mean the most common enemy type in the game? Yeah, I'm aware. It's a nice tool in your kit.

No dragon worth mentioning ever needs to get any closer to a character / group of characters than their breath weapon's range + half their movement speed. Pride or other circumstances may want them to do otherwise, however.

That's false. A dragon isn't going to wait doing nothing for 1-4 turns waiting for their recharge to come back. The spellcaster will still cast spells and the ranged fighters will still use their weapons. A smart dragon is going to poke in-and-out of their 10ft reach claw and bite attacks on the spellcasters until they get their recharge back because alive enemies are more dangerous the longer they're left alive.

Wyverns are arguably not worth expending ki points over (just shoot them to death with a ranged weapon or- if you must- ready stunning fist for when it gets close). Pegasi, Perytons, and most other flying beasts are absolutely not worth spending ki points on, though admittedly something like a roc would be worth trying to prone.

Wyverns are CR6, that's definitely worth expending Ki points on. They do alot of damage and have 10ft reach stingers and claws. No need for them to get into your melee range so readying stunning strike doesn't help.

Flying swords and animated objects either hover or can't fly, so trying to prone them is pointless.

Check again, flying sword don't hover and aren't immune to prone. Gargoyles also don't have those features now that I'm looking at them. Neither do genies. Hmmm...the more I look in the MM, the more useful a long distance prone becomes.

The lack of the amazing Stunning Fist is a big drawback to going ranged as a monk, yes, but otherwise it's almost trivially easy to make a monk as good (or better) at range as they are at melee.

Searing sunburst is also a save-and-suck ability. At level 11. They save, you get nothing. Sun bolt only lets you do a maximum of three attacks at the cost of a Ki point. Melee lets you do 4 at the same cost. Kensei only gets two shots, meaning you'll have less opportunities to do the extra damage they can do with melee. 4 attack rolls (melee) vs 2 (kensei) means 2 more opportunities to crit.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is seems like an extremely low bar for "excel".

Feels to me like no Monk "excels" at dealing with flying enemies without assists like a flying mount, a Fly spell or magic item that gives flight (like a number of other classes/subclasses).

4E Monks just have a resource-intensive way to help fight extremely small numbers of flyers if those flyers decide to come within (pretty short) range of the Monk.

 

[Asisreo]

This is seems like an extremely low bar for "excel".

Feels to me like no Monk "excels" at dealing with flying enemies without assists like a flying mount, a Fly spell or magic item that gives flight (like a number of other classes/subclasses).

4E Monks just have a resource-intensive way to help fight extremely small numbers of flyers if those flyers decide to come within (pretty short) range of the Monk.

Four element monks have access to the fly spell, though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Four element monks have access to the fly spell, though.

I'm not seeing the "though". A lot of people have direct or indirect access to that spell or capabilities that are equal or superior to that spell. It still doesn't seem like they "excel" at dealing with flying enemies. Eldritch Smite makes this stuff look pretty sad, for example. Or like, anyone who can have Earthbind ready to go without causing themselves a problem.

 

[Flamestrike]

Flying races, buying magic items, and crafting them are very DM dependent. None of them exist in my world (though steel a magic item might). Some worlds don't even have magic items.

There are no flying humanoids, or people with the ability to make magic items? How do they get made then?

The default setting of 5E is magic items exist, and can be made (see Xanathars). That's not universal though.

In any event seeing as your world has magic items, I presume one can buy them, or contact an Archmage or similar and offer to complete a quest for one?

 

[FarBeyondC]

Assuming you have teammates, of course. Even if you don't have any other melee teammates, you can easily force them into a position where they must take an OA stun strike. If you readies your action to just before they leave your reach to WW, it knocks them prone & you get to act on it next turn with advantage.

Maybe other people play differently, but no one I'm aware of would let you make the stated readied action WW. I'll admit it doesn't really matter though, because a valid ready could be made to get the same effect.

There's damage, yes, but where's the riders? Proning an enemy can be costly to that enemy, they have disadvantage on attacks against you and you have advantage with melee attacks against them.

Unless you stunned them, they'll just stand on their turn which voids their disadvantage on attacks against you (the people lucky enough to go between your successful proning of the enemy and it's next turn are still good with their advantage, so half a point).

That's called compensating for flying enemies, not excelling. The damage output is okay but I think you fail to realize that proning a target is good for other characters as well as your own.

You mean the most common enemy type in the game? Yeah, I'm aware. It's a nice tool in your kit.

That's false. A dragon isn't going to wait doing nothing for 1-4 turns waiting for their recharge to come back. The spellcaster will still cast spells and the ranged fighters will still use their weapons. A smart dragon is going to poke in-and-out of their 10ft reach claw and bite attacks on the spellcasters until they get their recharge back because alive enemies are more dangerous the longer they're left alive.

Assuming it doesn't just, I don't know, leave and harass the party when they're trying to rest or something, sure.

Wyverns are CR6, that's definitely worth expending Ki points on. They do alot of damage and have 10ft reach stingers and claws. No need for them to get into your melee range so readying stunning strike doesn't help..

Most T2 groups I played with have dealt with Wyverns and other creatures of its level of threat in just under a round (usually whoever ends up being last among the group either starts on another enemy or starts the cleanup if there weren't any other enemies). A fair number of T1 groups I've been in have done the same, which to me does not always a worthwhile expenditure of ki points make. Group capabilities do vary, and thus worthwhile-ness does as well.

Check again, flying sword don't hover and aren't immune to prone.

Flying swords received hover in an errata, as did ghosts and flameskulls.

Searing sunburst is also a save-and-suck ability. At level 11. They save, you get nothing. Sun bolt only lets you do a maximum of three attacks at the cost of a Ki point. Melee lets you do 4 at the same cost.

As far as what you want to do with them (prone an enemy), both FoUA and WW may as well be save-and-suck given they don't prone on a successful save, but I'll concede that they at least do something no matter what.

Where are getting the idea that Sun Bolt only does three attacks maximum from? You get two sun bolts through your action and the ki point bonus action also gives you two.

 

[Guest 6801328]

There are no flying humanoids, or people with the ability to make magic items? How do they get made then?

The default setting of 5E is magic items exist, and can be made (see Xanathars). That's not universal though.

In any event seeing as your world has magic items, I presume one can buy them, or contact an Archmage or similar and offer to complete a quest for one?

You obviously have a preference for a particular "feel" in your D&D settings, which is totally valid. My preferences are different. Call me "too stuck in Tolkien", maybe. But I like magic items to be rare and special, and flying humanoids even rarer. I will often ban the fly spell, or at least make it a spell that you can't simply choose when you level up.

 

[Asisreo]

There are no flying humanoids, or people with the ability to make magic items? How do they get made then?

The default setting of 5E is magic items exist, and can be made (see Xanathars). That's not universal though.

In any event seeing as your world has magic items, I presume one can buy them, or contact an Archmage or similar and offer to complete a quest for one?

Aarakocra are flying humanoids, literally the first MM monster. So are winged kobolds. Mages and archmages are humanoid with access to fly.

The default setting of 5e has nothing to do with personal campaign-to-campaign settings. I've yet to introduce a flying magic items in my world and I have no plans to introduce one. My cultists are going to be on Giant Bats because that's their motif and the monk is a drunken master. Meaning they won't have great ranged options. I don't have plans to fix their flaws. I might but I don't have any plans. At most, I might give them a flying potion but it'd probably be long after the cultist arc. Because my setting is low magic.