D&D 5E 4-Element monks are the only monk archetype that excels against flying enemies

[Asisreo]

It's not particularly good at what it does, no, at least not for me when I play it. It does the things you describe, that's for sure, but not well enough for me to really care. If I wanted AoE I'd play a class that actually did AoE. The control also comes really late and doesn't compare to the Wizard at all, and, in fact if you have a Wizard you're always going to feel like the red-headed step child. He's been casting Wall of Stone for 8 levels before you get to do it. Sorry, waiting a ton of levels to get to do something else another class already does isn't exciting. I would have much preferred for the subclass to get their own abilities.

The problem is that you're comparing yourself to someone when there's hardly a basis for comparison. Like you said, if you wanted pure AoE, you'd get it from a class that gets it sooner. But you're playing a monk. Other Monks don't get any AoE until level 11 as a sun soul and it's even worse than a 4-Elemonk's since by that level, you'd get fireball.

Your wizard can wall of stone, but he may be busy concentrating on stronger concentration spells.

It's not about what they can do, it's about what you can do within your realm of power. Because they might be upset that you get to throw fireballs and take down single-targets with stunning strike and have proficiency in all saves and have evasion and get to reroll their saves and cast spells and have a D8 hit dice and have base 20 AC and can BA dodge/disengage/dash while if they get into melee with the same type of enemies you are, they have to spend a spellslot and pray it's enough.

It's not a fair comparison to say wizard gets fireball earlier therefore wizard is better with fireball. That's their schtick, magic.

 

[Fenris-77]

No, I'm talking about the high level abilities of the subclass, which are almost all things that another class gets way earlier. It doesn't matter if the Wizard isn't a Monk, it makes the abilities not exciting.

 

[Asisreo]

No, I'm talking about the high level abilities of the subclass, which are almost all things that another class gets way earlier. It doesn't matter if the Wizard isn't a Monk, it makes the abilities not exciting.

It's not a competition. Half-casters and third-casters all get that feeling. But even they don't get the resources back on a short rest, or when you just roll initiative. You get fewer spells known and they use the source quickly but they come back on a short rest and they're still a competitive addition, like a warlock.

You actually have spell progression of the level of a halfcaster, not a thirdcaster, and you still have access to your nonspell options even at level 17-20.

 

[Fenris-77]

It's not a competition. Half-casters and third-casters all get that feeling. But even they don't get the resources back on a short rest, or when you just roll initiative. You get fewer spells known and they use the source quickly but they come back on a short rest and they're still a competitive addition, like a warlock.

You actually have spell progression of the level of a halfcaster, not a thirdcaster, and you still have access to your nonspell options even at level 17-20.

Yeah, and based on the available spells, and the levels they become available at, I find the subclass enormously underwhelming. It's fine that you like it, and I'm not telling people not to play it, but I'm not nearly excited enough about it to actually play it, and I really do like Monks generally. It's not a matter of you convincing me, I'm quite familiar with the subclass. It's ok that we both don't see it the same way.

 

[Asisreo]

Yeah, and based on the available spells, and the levels they become available at, I find the subclass enormously underwhelming. It's fine that you like it, and I'm not telling people not to play it, but I'm not nearly excited enough about it to actually play it, and I really do like Monks generally. It's not a matter of you convincing me, I'm quite familiar with the subclass. It's ok that we both don't see it the same way.

Agreed. I just don't want others to be discouraged from a perfectly fine subclass just because people try to convince them it's objectively bad.

5e is quite balanced, moreso than the majority of TTRPG's I've ever seen. I'm also very particular when it comes to understanding design decisions because I let them guide me for when I homebrew.

I don't mind these types of discussions, though. Through this entire thread, I've looked deeper into a subclass I feel most don't and I'm satisfied with the knowledge I've gained.

 

[Flamestrike]

I've never seen winged tieflings across my XGtE, PHB, MToF, VGtM, or Eberron which are the ones that are usually given as RAW or AL-legal. Aaracokra are also not here.

Protector Aasimar can't fly until level 3.

That's a lot sooner than 4EM's can.

Heck that's the same time you're becoming a 4EM.

 

[Flamestrike]

I 100% don't care if a player finds a way to fly at level 1 within my rules I've established and I don't think flying absolutely demolishes all my encounters.

But if you beg me for a flying magic item because you want to shore up a weakness and be stronger and I say no but you persist, you're not getting anything short of a Boot of Removal.

Lol. Im not begging you for anything.

I'd just play a protector Aasimar Shadow monk. I have short range teleport and fly, and I dont have to MC to get it.

 

[Asisreo]

That's a lot sooner than 4EM's can.

Heck that's the same time you're becoming a 4EM.

Sure, you can't use it again until a long rest, though.

That doesn't really make 4-elemonks that can fly any less worth looking at nor does that take away from their other abilities. If you go 4-Elemonk as an Aasimar, you might not want to pick up fly, just take another discipline at 11th level.

You still get good AoE and you still get good proning proning range whenever you can't fly anymore so it's not like you've really lost anything.

 

[Flamestrike]

Sure, you can't use it again until a long rest, though.

Thats OK. I highly doubt I'll need it more than 1/ long rest.

That said If i wanted flight, misty step etc, I'd probably just go a Sorcerer/ Monk (with maybe Paladin 2 for smite).

It probably makes a better 4E Monk than the 4E Monk does.

 

[Asisreo]

Thats OK. I highly doubt I'll need it more than 1/ long rest.

That said If i wanted flight, misty step etc, I'd probably just go a Sorcerer/ Monk (with maybe Paladin 2 for smite).

It probably makes a better 4E Monk than the 4E Monk does.

Wait, somehow using flying twice per short rest is an expensive option but you can't see yourself using it more than once a long rest anyways?

And you can spec all you want to get whatever you want. You'll be pretty MAD with Dex, Wis, and Cha as your important stats and you'll constantly have to weigh whether your next level should get you closer to fly or if it should get you closer to stunning strike. You'll also have 5d8/5d6 hit dice which makes you less tanky and both your Ki and Sorcery points are stuck at 5 when you get to fly.

This is a very heavy investment for a flying monk with stunning strike at level 10 when you could have stayed 4-elemonk and gotten fly at level 11 as well as the 11 Ki points, 5d8 hit dice, evasion, +20ft movement and the d8 martial arts dice.