Pathfinder 2E Healing in PF2

[Celtavian]

Dave2008 would definitely have to make sure not to go overboard killing characters with dead at 0. I'm sure he could figure it out, but it might take a few sessions.

 

[CapnZapp]

That is one reason 0 = dead in our games. We will change the dying rules to match if we play PF2e too.

I strongly advise you to not add your regular house rules to PF2 before playing it RAW enough to get an intimate understanding of its peculiarities. In this case, we've literally just now established that the Wounded condition comprehensively sorts this problem

PS. 0 = dead would just not work in PF2, since just about any combat can drop a character to zero hp, without the player doing any foolishness or recklessness.

 

[dave2008]

Fair warning: if 0 = dead in PF2 characters will die with about as much frequency as they did back when you had to roll HP at 1st level so surviving more than 2 hits at 1st level was surprising.

Dave2008 would definitely have to make sure not to go overboard killing characters with dead at 0. I'm sure he could figure it out, but it might take a few sessions.

I strongly advise you to not add your regular house rules to PF2 before playing it RAW enough to get an intimate understanding of its peculiarities. In this case, we've literally just now established that the Wounded condition comprehensively sorts this problem

PS. 0 = dead would just not work in PF2, since just about any combat can drop a character to zero hp, without the player doing any foolishness or recklessness.

Thank you for the feedback and I see your point. I don't mind trying it RAW first (I think we would try everything RAW for at least a session or two). However, this is something I think I would need to change. Currently it works well with our bloodied and DR house rule which would help make PF2e more survivable too. They other thing I would probably do is to primarily use level -2 monsters and/or I would have to see if it really is easier (for me) to nerf monsters than to buff them!

 

[CapnZapp]

Maybe simply reskin "Dying" to become "Reeling".

I mean, if what you want is that "once you fall, you're dead" and/or avoid the imagery of a fighter cycling through the states of falling unconscious/back up in the fight several times during a single minute... then you could postpone the falling bit and keep everything else the same.

That is, at 0 hp you still gain the condition, now renamed "Reeling 1" or whatever. You remain standing and able to act, but maybe with the Reeling level as a penalty to everything to simulate how you're, well, reeling. Once you get to "Reeling 4" you fall dead, just like what happens at 0 hp in Basic D&D.

On the surface of it, this is a large benefit (I don't have to spend actions on grabbing my gear and my spells don't fizzle, etc) - but I'm not so sure.

Lying still face down is after all a good way to avoid taking further damage until your Cleric manages to pump you full of new hit points - if you keep standing up, monsters would have no reason not to keep attacking a Reeling hero, which would very very quickly indeed make him go from Reeling to Keeling (sorry). I'm thinking many players would voluntarily let the hit that made them Reeling actually strike them to the floor and strike their weapon out of their hand, simply to gain a moment's respite (and to avoid very quickly racking up Reeling levels).

You wouldn't go unconscious, meaning you would avoid the unrealism of two seconds after lying bleeding on the floor now charging the enemy at full capacity, if that's why you added your house rule in the first place, I mean.

 

[dave2008]

Maybe simply reskin "Dying" to become "Reeling".

I mean, if what you want is that "once you fall, you're dead" and/or avoid the imagery of a fighter cycling through the states of falling unconscious/back up in the fight several times during a single minute... then you could postpone the falling bit and keep everything else the same.

That is, at 0 hp you still gain the condition, now renamed "Reeling 1" or whatever. You remain standing and able to act, but maybe with the Reeling level as a penalty to everything to simulate how you're, well, reeling. Once you get to "Reeling 4" you fall dead, just like what happens at 0 hp in Basic D&D.

On the surface of it, this is a large benefit (I don't have to spend actions on grabbing my gear and my spells don't fizzle, etc) - but I'm not so sure.

Lying still face down is after all a good way to avoid taking further damage until your Cleric manages to pump you full of new hit points - if you keep standing up, monsters would have no reason not to keep attacking a Reeling hero, which would very very quickly indeed make him go from Reeling to Keeling (sorry). I'm thinking many players would voluntarily let the hit that made them Reeling actually strike them to the floor and strike their weapon out of their hand, simply to gain a moment's respite (and to avoid very quickly racking up Reeling levels).

You wouldn't go unconscious, meaning you would avoid the unrealism of two seconds after lying bleeding on the floor now charging the enemy at full capacity, if that's why you added your house rule in the first place, I mean.

I appreciate the ideas, but I just want 0 to = dead. However, perhaps you start "dying" at 10 HP or something. So you get the dying or wounded condition at 10 HP (or a % of your HP max or something). Not sure yet.

 

[CapnZapp]

I appreciate the ideas, but I just want 0 to = dead. However, perhaps you start "dying" at 10 HP or something. So you get the dying or wounded condition at 10 HP (or a % of your HP max or something). Not sure yet.

I honestly urge you to reflect why you want 0 = dead. I mean, it was a long time since this was the standard. It simply feels like such an unnecessarily big hurdle to set yourself. I mean, in many other D&D games it's a fairly straight-forward tweak. Not so here. The fact remains that PF2 is designed as a game when a hero can suddenly lose one, two or even all three thirds of her maximum hit points simply due to the GM rolling a '20', followed by great damage rolls. There simply is much less space for the 0 = dead idea than in any other iteration of D&D I've seen.

Thus, I don't see percentages of your hp working, simply because you would regularly go right past that stage to dead anyway!

Perhaps taking a key from Wounds & Vitality would be a better idea - not the whole variant rule, but specifically the idea to rename hit points "vitality" to reinforce that the statistic isn't "hit points" but more like energy and morale - and so less unrealistic that they bounce up and down quickly. And otherwise use the game as-is.

 

[dave2008]

I honestly urge you to reflect why you want 0 = dead. I mean, it was a long time since this was the standard. It simply feels like such an unnecessarily big hurdle to set yourself. I mean, in many other D&D games it's a fairly straight-forward tweak. Not so here. The fact remains that PF2 is designed as a game when a hero can suddenly lose one, two or even all three thirds of her maximum hit points simply due to the GM rolling a '20', followed by great damage rolls. There simply is much less space for the 0 = dead idea than in any other iteration of D&D I've seen.

Thus, I don't see percentages of your hp working, simply because you would regularly go right past that stage to dead anyway!

Perhaps taking a key from Wounds & Vitality would be a better idea - not the whole variant rule, but specifically the idea to rename hit points "vitality" to reinforce that the statistic isn't "hit points" but more like energy and morale - and so less unrealistic that they bounce up and down quickly. And otherwise use the game as-is.

I really do understand what your saying and I would definitely play it RAW to start. However, we eventually played 0=dead in 4e and 5e too. So it has been our rule in all editions since 1e. We do treat HP as vitality, thus the bloodied hit points and armor w/ DR rules I discussed in another thread (at least I think it was a different thread). They work together and we would need to find a way to incorporate all 3 into PF2 to make it work for a long running campaign.

 

[CapnZapp]

we would need to find a way to incorporate all 3 into PF2 to make it work for a long running campaign.

I guess the only way I can be of constructive help here is by humbly suggesting you question this statement, not take it for granted.

Why is it, do you think, that you (if I'm reading you right here) are unable to play a given game on its own merits? Why doesn't "it work" without these rules? What could make you and your group accept change?

 

[dave2008]

I guess the only way I can be of constructive help here is by humbly suggesting you question this statement, not take it for granted.

Why is it, do you think, that you (if I'm reading you right here) are unable to play a given game on its own merits? Why doesn't "it work" without these rules? What could make you and your group accept change?

Those are all good points and I have noted we would try it RAW first, and I am sure I/we could change. The big issue is inertia and we really enjoy the game we are playing with these rules. I can't speak for why my players like the rules, but for me it is the combination of abstraction and verisimilitude that feels right to me that the standard death, armor, and HP rules of 1e, 4e, 5e, and PF2e don't provide. For me it is a conceptual issue, not a game play one.

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay. Good luck.