D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[Reynard]

If I didn't think the way I played was better, then .... wait for it ... I wouldn't play that way, would I? It's not like I'm thinking, "Wow, this style of play sucks so hard that I have to keep playing it. Man, it's terrible, and that's why I play this way. This must be what being a Cleveland Browns fan is like."

On the other hand, while I might not want to play SUPERHERO AVENGERS playstyle, and even make a little fun of it, it's totally fine for other people to play that way. I don't assert that my way is the only way; I fully understand that some people just love watching the Browns fail year after year, and who am I to stop them?

See the way you couched that in a superior, smug tone? That's the issue.

 

[TwoSix]

If I didn't think the way I played was better, then .... wait for it ... I wouldn't play that way, would I? It's not like I'm thinking, "Wow, this style of play sucks so hard that I have to keep playing it. Man, it's terrible, and that's why I play this way. This must be what being a Cleveland Browns fan is like."

On the other hand, while I might not want to play SUPERHERO AVENGERS playstyle, and even make a little fun of it, it's totally fine for other people to play that way. I don't assert that my way is the only way, and I don't bold and say that superhero play is what D&D is; I fully understand that some people just love watching the Browns fail year after year, and who am I to stop them?


As for the pushback? I've passed harder things in my stool.

<shrug> You do you. Posts by OSR fans who passive-aggressively critique modern play are as regular as the tides around here.

 

[Maxperson]

Notice, however, that also means D&D players who don't want to play superheroes don't have to stop at 3rd level either as flamestrike suggests either. There's a shitload of range here without everybody just talking extremes and wondering why we can't meet in the middle.

Sure, but being strong enough to fight dragons and such happens well before 17th. That's just when they take the next step up to fighting demigods and such. I'd say 3rd tier is when that happens. Definitely not 3rd level, though.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

<shrug> You do you. Posts by OSR fans who passive-aggressively critique modern play are as regular as the tides around here.

Do you know what else is fairly regular? People saying that they know what the rules are, and anyone that plays 5e differently is either "simply wrong" or caps their campaigns at fourth level.

You do you, old friend.

 

[Oofta]

I've played a couple of campaigns up to level 20 now, they don't feel like top tier super heroes to me. They haven't saved the galaxy, they aren't gods who walk among men.

But there's a wide variety in the superhero category. Are we talking Luke Cage or Superman? Hawkeye or The Flash?

End of the day it doesn't really matter. Make the game what you want, I just wanted to chime in and say that in my game the PCs may go down in legend. Special? Extraordinary? Able to call in the equivalent of an air strike once per long rest? Sure. But superhuman? Nah.

 

[TwoSix]

Do you know what else is fairly regular?

As for the pushback? I've passed harder things in my stool.

Well, I've narrowed down what isn't regular.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but you're wrong.

Maybe your campaigns stop at 4th level or so. Beats me. But in the RAW, you're simply wrong.

FUN! I love a challenge. Let's see. I'm wrong, am I? RAW.

Okay, so if someone is playing intrigue or mystery or horror (DMG 38) then they are "simply wrong."

If they are playing with madness and sanity (DMG 252, 265) they are "simply wrong."

If you play with intelligent monsters that use skirmish, missile, and hit & run tactics then you are "simply wrong."

If your monsters focus fire on the players and will kill players that are down (instead of allowing whac-a-mole) then you are "simply wrong."

If you use slow, milestone leveling then you are "simply wrong."

If you combine slow natural healing and gritty realism (DMG 267) then you are simply wrong.

...or, if you play with injuries (DMG 272) or massive damage (273).


All of this before getting into house rules (some campaigns remove cantrips, or have rules for speed and spellcasting).

Yes, I guess I am simply wrong for not playing 5e in the way that you demand. I will give you your money back; I suggest you lodge a formal complaint with Crawford.

 

[TwoSix]

Do you know what else is fairly regular? People saying that they know what the rules are, and anyone that plays 5e differently is either "simply wrong" or caps their campaigns at fourth level.

Side argument. @Flamestrike is right to assert that default 5e D&D is a game of superheroic characters fighting dragons at the upper levels. You're right to assert that default 5E D&D doesn't define D&D; "D&D" is a broad term with lots of latitude. Other editions of D&D are still D&D, houseruled D&D is still D&D. RAW 5e D&D shouldn't be viewed as the Animal Farm definition of D&D ("All D&Ds are equal, but....").

 

[Reynard]

I've played a couple of campaigns up to level 20 now, they don't feel like top tier super heroes to me. They haven't saved the galaxy, they aren't gods who walk among men.

But there's a wide variety in the superhero category. Are we talking Luke Cage or Superman? Hawkeye or The Flash?

End of the day it doesn't really matter. Make the game what you want, I just wanted to chime in and say that in my game the PCs may go down in legend. Special? Extraordinary? Able to call in the equivalent of an air strike once per long rest? Sure. But superhuman? Nah.

I just had a 15th level TPK. That wouldn't happen to the Avengers or JLA. That said, there is a tonal shift as the PCs gain level and leave alot of "mortal" concerns behind them and as their adventures tend to get bigger in scope -- or, at least, higher in SFX budget.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

To each his own, but any edition of D&D once you got past 9-10th level you were way past Aragorn fighting orcs, or Conan fighting ape-men and having a challenge. You fly, teleport, alter reality, slay 20 men solo via sword or spell, etc. Personally I lose a bit of interest when it gets too over the top, but I've always thought D&D from B/X on became more Justice League than Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser at a certain point. But at higher level you don't have to focus on that aspect and can do other things.