D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[TwoSix]

Just because the dragon isn't speaking doesn't mean it's a dumb beast.

But that's, literally, the definition.

 

[Maxperson]

That is great .... for you. Which is why, despite you being manifestly wrong (IMO), I do not go to your house, slap the dice out of your hand, pee on your table, and demand that you play Champions instead.

He's actually manifestly right in a factual way. The DMG says very specifically that the PCs become superheroes, fight avatars of gods, and shake the world with their exploits. Read page 37 of the DMG, the 17-20th level portion.

You can play things your way, though, which is why we don't go to your house and slap the dice out of your hand, pee on your table and demand that you play D&D the way it is written.

 

[Maxperson]

That depends, doesn't it? D&D characters who aren't powerful enough who try to stab the balrog to death will die in droves (with their players, hopefully, becoming the wiser). Aragorn can credibly be built as an 8th-10th level character. Running from a balrog/balor is the smart move on his part even in D&D.

Aragorn was the pinnacle of what a PC who was not a 1st age elf who lived in heaven for thousands of years, absorbing that power, could achieve. If D&D PCs ended up in Middle Earth, they would be on par with Aragorn and have to flee the Balrog no matter what their level is.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That depends, doesn't it? D&D characters who aren't powerful enough who try to stab the balrog to death will die in droves (with their players, hopefully, becoming the wiser). Aragorn can credibly be built as an 8th-10th level character. Running from a balrog/balor is the smart move on his part even in D&D.

Also, a Balrog of Morgoth is much scarier than D&D’s Balor.

 

[billd91]

He's actually manifestly right in a factual way. The DMG says very specifically that the PCs become superheroes, fight avatars of gods, and shake the world with their exploits. Read page 37 of the DMG, the 17-20th level portion.

You can play things your way, though, which is why we don't go to your house and slap the dice out of your hand, pee on your table and demand that you play D&D the way it is written.

Notice, however, that also means D&D players who don't want to play superheroes don't have to stop at 3rd level either as flamestrike suggests either. There's a shitload of range here without everybody just talking extremes and wondering why we can't meet in the middle.

 

[Reynard]

Notice, however, that also means D&D players who don't want to play superheroes don't have to stop at 3rd level either as flamestrike suggests either. There's a shitload of range here without everybody just talking extremes and wondering why we can't meet in the middle.

I also think that "super heroism" is partly about class choices. Warlocks feel like superheroes to me from very early levels relative to Champion fighters and Berserker barbarians.

 

[TwoSix]

I would start with what I hope is a banal observation; as the 500 lb gorilla in the FRPG market, D&D means different things to different people. So for someone (like you) to say that this is what D&D is (your emphasis) can be downright obnoxious to people who play a different way. What, are you saying that, since I don't play in the same way that you do, I am not playing "real D&D?" I certainly hope not, because I am not about to let you come into my house and pee on my table.

Again- some people like pure, escapist, fantasy, devoid of real consequence where you don't fear the Balrogs; you just kill 'em and take their stuff on the way to deciding what powers you get when you level up. That's cool! But try to refrain from telling everyone else that they are playing it wrong if they don't feel like using the D&D rules to emulate Marvel FASERIP.

I hope you realize you're getting a lot of pushback because you're simultaneously asserting that D&D is a big tent with room for lots of play styles AND that your style of play is morally superior. It's not a good look.

 

[billd91]

Aragorn was the pinnacle of what a PC who was not a 1st age elf who lived in heaven for thousands of years, absorbing that power, could achieve.

According to whose understanding or interpretation? He's no Isildur. He's no Turin, son of Hurin. He's impressive, but he's no pinnacle of human achievement in Middle Earth. There's a lot of room to interpret him without assuming that he's some kind of superhero.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I hope you realize you're getting a lot of pushback because you're simultaneously asserting that D&D is a big tent with room for lots of play styles AND that your style of play is morally superior. It's not a good look.

If I didn't think the way I played was better, then .... wait for it ... I wouldn't play that way, would I? It's not like I'm thinking, "Wow, this style of play sucks so hard that I have to keep playing it. Man, it's terrible, and that's why I play this way. This must be what being a Cleveland Browns fan is like."

On the other hand, while I might not want to play SUPERHERO AVENGERS playstyle, and even make a little fun of it, it's totally fine for other people to play that way. I don't assert that my way is the only way, and I don't bold and say that superhero play is what D&D is; I fully understand that some people just love watching the Browns fail year after year, and who am I to stop them?


As for the pushback? I've passed harder things in my stool.

 

[Flamestrike]

That is great .... for you. Which is why, despite you being manifestly wrong (IMO), I do not go to your house, slap the dice out of your hand, pee on your table, and demand that you play Champions instead.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but you're wrong.

DnD PCs (past mid level) are literal superheroes. Those features are baked into the classes, the rules and the expectations of mid to high level DnD PC's.

DnD does not emulate 'low gritty GoT fantasy' at any point after low level play.

At 11th+ level (by RAW) the PCs are literally routinely fighting Demons (and Demon lords), Psionic mind controlling brain eating aliens, Wizards capable of reality altering magic, T-Rexes, Beholders with disintegration rays, Demi-gods, infernal hordes, whole clans of 20' tall giants... and winning. They're travelling to different planes of existence. They're calling on literal divine intervention, altering reality with a word, faling into magma, or off 20 storey buildings and surviving. They're loading and firing crossbows 1/ second, they're getting so angry they can fly, they're sprouting wings, opening gates to other realities, bringing the dead back to life, meditating so hard they can enter the Astral plane, wielding artifacts, intelligent weapons, and tokens of power from otherwoldly entities etc etc etc

They are beyond Defenders level of power (that was mid level or around 5-10th at T2). They are now approaching (or at) a level of power equal to that of the Avengers or X-Men. Their actions shape the course of the world.

That's the rules. Thats the expectation (clearly expressed in monster CR's, adventures published, class features as written, the tier system and more). I believe 17th level plus PCs are expressly called out as 'superheroes' in the rulebook.

Maybe your campaigns stop at 4th level or so. Beats me. But in the RAW, you're simply wrong.