D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[DND_Reborn]

Is you using wish to create a 25.000gold and 1/3 chance to lose wish forever.
DM fiat and go Wish scroll and all is over infinite simulacra at is flying machines that hits at 2 miles.
Lets be honest, Wizard is just great on theory. Hahaha nothing about it will come to play. Never

So? All I need is 1500 gp, make a simulacrum, have IT cast the Wish spell, and if IT loses that ability, I don't care because I have enough money now to remake the first (Bob) and have it continue to make the rest as I described. Easy as pie really and requires no DM fiat or planning out the arena as you seem to like to do.

Seriously? This is ALL theory since the beginning, that is what we've been doing this whole time. The Wizard is just as likely to happen as the Sorcerer.

You're reaching at this point and I've shown to the boards how a Wizard can work to crush any other class.

The saddest part is I agree that Sorcerers are real beasts in the game. I love metamagic, and I think other than a Wizard, a good Sorcerer build can probably win quite a lot.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Adam, on average, would have 80hp without con. Let's say he has a +3 con, just to be generous. That puts him on average of 140hp. When Adam made Bob, Bob now has 70hp. It would be a spiral of maximum health if they simulacrum from each other. So conan, dirk, and erik also has 70hp. It's not a stretch to say that the dream team of wizards go first.

2 of the squad has nothing above 6th level and Adam has all his spell slots. It's a powerful start indeed.

So it would be fair that the sorcerer spends his time casting Etherealness. Right? So the battle starts with the team of wizards having to face an ethereal sorcerer. There's certainly some things they can try to do to get around this, but they can be a bit convoluted. The wizard may not even know the battle begun. The sorcerer uses his action to reappear and uses Quicken Meteor Swarm. Now the average of each hit is actually the average HP of Bob, the original spellcaster. So each simulacrum has very low odds of surviving. If any of the boosted snowmen decide to counterspell, the sorcerer subtle counterspells back.

You're forgetting or ignoring that the Sorcerer won't be alive to cast anything.

Sorcerers don't even have Contingency, so they can't save themselves with it like a wizard can.

Granted, again we can debate it but it comes down to the set-up. We have been discussing arena-style competition and I am going off of the OP's suggestions (60-120 feet start, both present and such). When I talk about the simulacrums, they go where the wizard goes.

I'll freely admit without that single spell, Wizard are powerful but it isn't a "no contest" anymore.

 

[FrogReaver]

You're forgetting or ignoring that the Sorcerer won't be alive to cast anything.

Sorcerers don't even have Contingency, so they can't save themselves with it like a wizard can.

Granted, again we can debate it but it comes down to the set-up. We have been discussing arena-style competition and I am going off of the OP's suggestions (60-120 feet start, both present and such). When I talk about the simulacrums, they go where the wizard goes.

I'll freely admit without that single spell, Wizard are powerful but it isn't a "no contest" anymore.

what prevents the sorcerer from starting the battle flying 60 feet off the ground?

 

[Hohige]

So it would be fair that the sorcerer spends his time casting Etherealness. Right? So the battle starts with the team of wizards having to face an ethereal sorcerer. There's certainly some things they can try to do to get around this, but they can be a bit convoluted. The wizard may not even know the battle begun. The sorcerer uses his action to reappear and uses Quicken Meteor Swarm. Now the average of each hit is actually the average HP of Bob, the original spellcaster. So each simulacrum has very low odds of surviving. If any of the boosted snowmen decide to counterspell, the sorcerer subtle counterspells back.

Lul, It's insane.
190 damage instantly. With Overpowered Sorcerer's Meteor Swarm
90 damage instantly with Quickened empowered Simulacrum's Insect Plague
It's insta death.

Also, Simulacrum Quicken Reverse Gravity + Sorcerer Quicken wish duplicating Dark Star
The Wizard is blind, deaf and hold on Reverse Gravify. 8d10 force damage per turn.

 

[Hohige]

(60-120 feet start, both present and such).

Yes, to have a minimal chance you need it, because open field is a Sorcerer domination.
Less than 60' sorcerer subtle spell dominates

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Lets be honest, Wizard is just great on theory. Hahaha nothing about it will come to play. Never

I'm going to have a game where there's a demigod or something (maybe like the god of mirrors) who will have the party fight themselves at 20th level. Maybe I'll also throw in some "optimal" builds to mix it up a bit... Then maybe we can "prove" the answer to this after all... However, they are only 5th level now, so it'll be 3-4 years until I necro this thread for y'all...

 

[Asisreo]

You're forgetting or ignoring that the Sorcerer won't be alive to cast anything.

Sorcerers don't even have Contingency, so they can't save themselves with it like a wizard can.

Granted, again we can debate it but it comes down to the set-up. We have been discussing arena-style competition and I am going off of the OP's suggestions (60-120 feet start, both present and such). When I talk about the simulacrums, they go where the wizard goes.

I'll freely admit without that single spell, Wizard are powerful but it isn't a "no contest" anymore.

If the wizard gets roughly 2 days to prep, it would only make sense that the sorcerer does as well, right? Besides, the sorcerer only needs to do it before 8 hours.

 

[DND_Reborn]

what prevents the sorcerer from starting the battle flying 60 feet off the ground?

LOL nothing. Then I would do spells other than Meteor Swarm and Magic Missile. A 9th-level Dispel Magic would destroy the Simulacrum instantly, for example, and the 4 simulacrums could all do Disintegrates for 300 force damage with auto-failed saves due to Portent, killing the Sorcerer as well.

As I said, that post was without even thinking about what spells would actually maximize the potential. Magic Missile, Disintegrate, Meteor Swarms are all pretty standard for combat wizards (which this is all about--combat) so I just went with the bland choices.

EDIT: the poster was choosing Aasimar (?) for a lot of his examples. Transforming and gaining flight would require his first action, by which time he would be dead. Now, if he chose a race that could already fly... then just do different damaging spells as shown.

If the wizard gets roughly 2 days to prep, it would only make sense that the sorcerer does as well, right? Besides, the sorcerer only needs to do it before 8 hours.

This isn't "prep"; this should be run-of-the-mill by 20th level for a Wizard to have 4 simulacrums as outlined.

 

[Hohige]

Sorcerers don't even have Contingency, so they can't save themselves with it like a wizard can.

Well, Contingency has 10 days duration. What prevent himself to cast wish to duplicate it previously?

 

[Hohige]

EDIT: the poster was choosing Aasimar (?) for a lot of his examples. Transforming and gaining flight would require his first action, by which time he would be dead. Now, if he chose a race that could already fly... then just do different damaging spells as shown.

Are you flying race?
Nice.

Ethrealness, action to return to material plane.
Simulacrum quicken Reverse Gravity, no save for you.
The Sorcerer quicken Wish Duplicating Dark Star.

No save, imprisoned, blind, deaf and can't cast cast verbal component.
8d10 per turn.