D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[Hohige]

This isn't "prep"; this should be run-of-the-mill by 20th level for a Wizard to have 4 simulacrums as outlined.

Again, 6000 gold is DM fiat.
What prevent the Sorcerer just create your own scroll of wish?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well, Contingency has 10 days duration. What prevent himself to cast wish to duplicate it previously?

Oh, nothing at all. Just showing another powerful spell that Sorcerers need to rely on Wish to duplicate...

Are you flying race?
Nice.

Ethrealness, action to return to material plane.
Simulacrum quicken Rever Gravity, no save for you.
The Sorcerer quicken Wish Duplicating Dark Star.

No save, imprisoned, blind, deaf and can't cast cast verbal component.
8d10 per turn.

Except you are still disintegrated and dust before your first turn comes. You seem to be ignoring that fact...

And if you are a flying race, you don't have all the other things Aasimar has that you wanted to use before. Heck, I haven't even picked a race for my Wizard build and you need to custom tailor your sorcerer for each possibility...

Not that it really matters because you are dead before you get to act no matter what.

Again, 6000 gold is DM fiat.

Again, not really. It was only 1500 actually in case your short-term memory is failing you.

1. Make simulacrum (1500 gp is equal to a suit if plate armor. if you aren't getting that much money by 20th level, I really pity your gaming group!)
2. Simulacrum casts Wish for 25000 gp of powdered ruby.
3. Use powdered ruby for the next 16 castings of Simulacrum whenever the Wizard needs to.
4. Have Simulacrums make copies of themselves until 4 are made (the limit with just using spell slots).

So, not 6000 gp, only 1500 gp, and again not DM fiat. After all, the DMG recommends a minimum of 20000 gp at tier 4:

 

[Helldritch]

Creating a scroll of wish is the same as casting it and with the added cost and all the risks.
6000 gold is a lot, but not that much for a 20th level character.
The wizard don't have to rely on a wish to do his run of the mill. The sorcerer does.
You assume you will win the initiative. You will not. Take it for granted.
Five very dangerous spells will go your way. You take your reaction to counter a meteor? Ok, the simulacrums will disentagrate you with auto failed saved. At least 3 spells will get you.

You talk white room. I talk experience. We did it. We saw it happen. The Diviner beats all the other characters.

We had used the following rules.
No magic items save one magical armor, shield and weapon. All of the +1 variety. Nothing fancy, nothing with attunement. 6 potions were allowed. No scrolls no miscelaneous.
The same build must be used for all battles. No change between fights.
Anything brought up must be the run of the mill for said character. If said character would do it in an adventure, he can be assumed to have it (or have it prepared).

In all the tests, which took 2 weeks, 3 sessions per week, 8 hours long. The diviner lost one battle only once, to a wizard. All matches were 3 battles of 5 battles (or was it 2 out of 3? It's been a long while). The diviner won every single match straight up with consecutive wins.

Granted we were not too familiar with 5ed as we were doing this within the first week it got out. But a lot of my players have 30+ years of experience in D&D of various editions and they are no small players. The player playing the Diviner was not even my "best" tactical player. This is where we saw the power of a diviner. Do your white room all you want. I know what I saw.

Edit: Ho and your build had to be able to handle 5 battles with Encounter DC 20 (solo character). One battle was with a legendary opponent, one with two enemies, three with 4+ enemies.

 

[CleverNickName]

"I wish that wishes did nothing," says the druid upon discovering a magic lamp.

 

[Helldritch]

Oh, nothing at all. Just showing another powerful spell that Sorcerers need to rely on Wish to duplicate...


Except you are still disintegrated and dust before your first turn comes. You seem to be ignoring that fact...

And if you are a flying race, you don't have all the other things Aasimar has that you wanted to use before. Heck, I haven't even picked a race for my Wizard build and you need to custom tailor your sorcerer for each possibility...

Not that it really matters because you are dead before you get to act no matter what.

Again, not really. It was only 1500 actually in case your short-term memory is failing you.

1. Make simulacrum (1500 gp is equal to a suit if plate armor. if you aren't getting that much money by 20th level, I really pity your gaming group!)
2. Simulacrum casts Wish for 25000 gp of powdered ruby.
3. Use powdered ruby for the next 16 castings of Simulacrum whenever the Wizard needs to.
4. Have Simulacrums make copies of themselves until 4 are made (the limit with just using spell slots).

So, not 6000 gp, only 1500 gp, and again not DM fiat. After all, the DMG recommends a minimum of 20000 gp at tier 4:
View attachment 122653

What can I say. You prove me right time and time again.
We did the fights. The diviner won. Simple as that. No matter the race, no matter the opponent.

 

[DND_Reborn]

What can I say. You prove me right time and time again.
We did the fights. The diviner won. Simple as that. No matter the race, no matter the opponent.

LOL thanks!

I would like to point out one thing:

Creating a scroll of wish is the same as casting it and with the added cost and all the risks.

That isn't really accurate in 5E. Creating a scroll with a 9th level spell costs 250,000 gp according to the guidelines in XGtE. And in 5E you can't use a Wish to create any magic items, even a spell scroll. When you do spend the time and money (going by XGtE again), you just have to have the spell prepared, but you don't actually cast it. That's my take on it FWIW.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So, here's a question. What level 20 class do you think would win a 1 on 1 combat against any other class? There are no magic items allowed, unless you have class abilities that give you them. You get your subclass abilities, and get to choose your spells beforehand knowing that you're going into combat, and know who your foe will be.

This is clearly up to initiative a lot of the time, but what do you think is the most likely class to win most of the time? Post your thoughts and tactics below.

Just putting this here for those saying that you can make a spell scroll or have magic items, so on.

 

[Asisreo]

Creating a scroll of wish is the same as casting it and with the added cost and all the risks.
6000 gold is a lot, but not that much for a 20th level character.
The wizard don't have to rely on a wish to do his run of the mill. The sorcerer does.
You assume you will win the initiative. You will not. Take it for granted.
Five very dangerous spells will go your way. You take your reaction to counter a meteor? Ok, the simulacrums will disentagrate you with auto failed saved. At least 3 spells will get you.

You talk white room. I talk experience. We did it. We saw it happen. The Diviner beats all the other characters.

We had used the following rules.
No magic items save one magical armor, shield and weapon. All of the +1 variety. Nothing fancy, nothing with attunement. 6 potions were allowed. No scrolls no miscelaneous.
The same build must be used for all battles. No change between fights.
Anything brought up must be the run of the mill for said character. If said character would do it in an adventure, he can be assumed to have it (or have it prepared).

In all the tests, which took 2 weeks, 3 sessions per week, 8 hours long. The diviner lost one battle only once, to a wizard. All matches were 3 battles of 5 battles (or was it 2 out of 3? It's been a long while). The diviner won every single match straight up with consecutive wins.

Granted we were not too familiar with 5ed as we were doing this within the first week it got out. But a lot of my players have 30+ years of experience in D&D of various editions and they are no small players. The player playing the Diviner was not even my "best" tactical player. This is where we saw the power of a diviner. Do your white room all you want. I know what I saw.

Edit: Ho and your build had to be able to handle 5 battles with Encounter DC 20 (solo character). One battle was with a legendary opponent, one with two enemies, three with 4+ enemies.

Being familiar with TTRPG's does not mean you're at all familiar with D&D5e and how to effectively build them. How would someone even begin to understand a portent's weakness if they've never realized how they exactly work.

 

[Asisreo]

Oh, nothing at all. Just showing another powerful spell that Sorcerers need to rely on Wish to duplicate...


Except you are still disintegrated and dust before your first turn comes. You seem to be ignoring that fact...

And if you are a flying race, you don't have all the other things Aasimar has that you wanted to use before. Heck, I haven't even picked a race for my Wizard build and you need to custom tailor your sorcerer for each possibility...

Not that it really matters because you are dead before you get to act no matter what.

Again, not really. It was only 1500 actually in case your short-term memory is failing you.

1. Make simulacrum (1500 gp is equal to a suit if plate armor. if you aren't getting that much money by 20th level, I really pity your gaming group!)
2. Simulacrum casts Wish for 25000 gp of powdered ruby.
3. Use powdered ruby for the next 16 castings of Simulacrum whenever the Wizard needs to.
4. Have Simulacrums make copies of themselves until 4 are made (the limit with just using spell slots).

So, not 6000 gp, only 1500 gp, and again not DM fiat. After all, the DMG recommends a minimum of 20000 gp at tier 4:
View attachment 122653

Is it reliance if it would be pretty unoptimal to not have a wished contingency on your off-days? It certainly doesn't hurt.

Also, it seems to be a common misconception that Simulacrum is 1500 gp each cast. This is false. It is 1500gp worth of powdered ruby. Unless there's a spell that allows a wizard to have 1500 gp worth of powdered ruby, it's up to DM fiat. Maybe the setting has no rubies in the setting. Or all the rubies have been hoarded by a wizard who already has his own army of simulacrum. Either way, you don't just start with 1500gp worth of powdered ruby.

 

[Iry]

"I wish that wishes did nothing," says the druid upon discovering a magic lamp.

In The Wizards Three from Dragon Magazine, either Mordenkainen or Elminster chides Dalamar about the first wish any wizard makes is being immune to wish.