D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[TheIdeaOfGood]

One RPG that succeeded in keeping their nonhuman races as nonhuman is Warhammer Fantasy. Greenskin Orcs literally can't understand not fighting. Dwarves never let things go and scrutinize all progress. Lizardmen have reptile brains and cannot step away from the Great Plan.

Ironic to since Games Workshop's game had a ton of possibly racist stuff and a few actual. To the point it hindered its expansion outside of Europe. But they succeeded in making its races feel inhuman.

So very true. An orc is simply not capable of understanding peace. It is not in his nature.
And a dwarf cannot forgive. They are utterly psychologically incapable of letting things go. Which is the reason for the whole Slayer cult thing - they are absolutely unable to forgive themselves.
And elves have such a long-term view of everything that, despite having the best intentions (the High Elves, at least), they are constantly manipulating everything around them to achieve an outcome the current generation of humans will never see.

I don't know who posted this earlier, but someone mentioned the fact that the whole setup of fantasy worlds is unique in that several sentient species share the same planet, which only happened once in our own species' history.
That mirrors my thoughts as well. Conflating the term "race" with so-called " human races" (which is nonsense from a biological standpoint anyway, there ar eno human races) is troublesome.

Now, if it gets rid of something that could be seen as problematic, sure, replace it with " ancestry" or something like that, it worked fine for Shadow of the Demon Lord.

But I do not think it's racist to point out the differences between different sentient species. I mean, an elephant is bigger than a dog and stronger - and most likely smarter. Is it racist to mention that? Of course not, they are different species.

Now, I get behind the idea of mostly getting rid of " always evil" humanoid races (and either make Gnolls fiends or get rid of their "near-mindless drones of Yeenoghu" background. I support the latter). That's a can of worms I think we should close the lid on forever and not look back. Now, if it's made clear that it's a society under the sway of an evil influence, like Lolth, that's something else.
But in my worlds, I prefer the true evil to come from outside, be it fiends, aberrations, etc. There is enough room for conflict, even fierce conflict, to arise between peoples without either of them being evil.

 

[Helldritch]

To continue with my analogies that races are not humans and should not be treated as such, I should add the following.
If you want to play races as fancy humans, I strongly believe that you are missing the point of playing a different race. An orc, an elf, a dragonborn and a dwarf think and act very differently from a human and from each other.

If you downplay their differences, you should consider playing in a setting more like a sword and sorcery style such as the Hyperborea of Conan where all races are human variations.

Playing a race should be an occasion to expand your RP experience by experimenting a new way of thinking and point of view. Playing an irremediably evil race such as an orc in Greyhawk, should make you understand why the puny weakling that humans are, are so right in fearing you. Might makes right in the world of the orcs. We follow the chief because he is strong and his allies and underlings are strong too. But should they weaken, we will slay them and assume the mantle of leadership that will be our due. Honor is for the fools, we are not the nobles orcs of the Warcraft game. We are the warriors, the raiders, the slayers. We kill because we can. We take the lands that we want and we eradicate those that live in them to make room for us. When we retreat, it is to come back and to try again.

These are the orcs of Greyhawk. No pity, no remorse, no understanding beyond what is needed to kill. These are not the noble orcs from Warcraft or the Eberron setting. They are a plague and they embrace these notions wholeheartedly.

The same goes for the elves. There is no need to rush. Why are you so eager to go adventuring now? We already had one adventure this year. I'd rather take time nurturing this little tree I have planted yesterday. If I trim it correctly, this Oakling will become a giant tree majestic and worthy to bear a marvelous tree house. What is it you say? The evil hobgoblin warlord Kutchak is on the rise? That does not concern me. He will be dead in a decade or so. What am I doing right now? Funny you ask. I am perfecting my swordplay, I am about to find the perfect parry when using the sword in conjunction with a buckler shield made of yew instead of oak...

Yep. Races are not humans.

 

[Weiley31]

(Are there gnolls in Humblewood? I thought it was cute humanoid animals, elementals and various dire beasts.)

I mean, not "technically" but I'm sure DMs add all kinds of crazy stuff to their Humblewood games. Like 5E Gnolls.

Insert Evil Smile.

 

[Warren Ellis]

The same goes for the elves. There is no need to rush. Why are you so eager to go adventuring now? We already had one adventure this year. I'd rather take time nurturing this little tree I have planted yesterday. If I trim it correctly, this Oakling will become a giant tree majestic and worthy to bear a marvelous tree house. What is it you say? The evil hobgoblin warlord Kutchak is on the rise? That does not concern me. He will be dead in a decade or so. What am I doing right now? Funny you ask. I am perfecting my swordplay, I am about to find the perfect parry when using the sword in conjunction with a buckler shield made of yew instead of oak...

This kind of makes me wonder, should an elf be the type who has to be dragged on adventures sometimes? Like they'd rather not accept a task or even really be serious about a situation (at first) because as you say it'll probably sort itself out (from their POV) and such?

 

[Helldritch]

So if both sides of the coin (Good and Evil) are engaged in a pitiless merciless war of genocide against the other, where they take no prisoners or slaughter the ones they do have, butcher children and the elderly, and seek to eradicate the other from existence... what separates them? What makes one side different from the other side?

Surely if one side is ethically Good, and the other side is ethically evil, thats what separates them. The fact that the Good guys demonstrate mercy, compassion and altruism, while the evil guys do not.

There is a saying attributed to Neitzche 'He that fights with monsters, should take care not to himself become a monster.' I feel as if the moral of that saying is lost on you.

I would have no problems with a purportedly LG society turning to genocide or total war to defeat an enemy (particularly one that presents an existential threat to its existence). However when it does so, it ceases being LG.

Easy to say as we are not in such a predicament. I prefer to think the other way around. Not doing it would be an evil and selfish thing to do as you would let your race be eradicated.

There is a quote that I like. Monsters we are lest monster we become. A nice twist isn't it?

Of course a Lawfu Good society would have tried a peaceful solution initially. But after a few millenia where diplomacy would have failed, it would have understood long ago that whenever an orc tribe was coming in, there would only be one solution.

You are confounding orcs with an other human culture. You can always negotiate or reason with a human. Not with these orcs. You seem to imply that I am amoral or that I do not understand your point of view. I feel it is the other way around.

You keep comparing these evil orcs to real life humans and, as such, you apply human values and morality to them when you should not. Again, do not compare real life or modern way of thinking to a game with a medieval or very early Renaissance mindset. These are not compatible.

 

[Helldritch]

This kind of makes me wonder, should an elf be the type who has to be dragged on adventures sometimes? Like they'd rather not accept a task or even really be serious about a situation (at first) because as you say it'll probably sort itself out (from their POV) and such?

Exactly. Things must be in a very dire state for elves to act quickly. After all, for them, waiting for a warlord to die is a perfectly viable strategy. When you live such a long time, you must be reluctant to risk it needlessly (or so it seems in your eyes).

 

[Warren Ellis]

Exactly. Things must be in a very dire state for elves to act quickly. After all, for them, waiting for a warlord to die is a perfectly viable strategy. When you live such a long time, you must be reluctant to risk it needlessly (or so it seems in your eyes).

So then what would elven adventurers generally be you'd say? Are they the impatient elves or something then, considering the various elf uh races, I guess you could say, all generally live pretty long?

 

[pukunui]

So then what would elven adventurers generally be you'd say? Are they the impatient elves or something then, considering the various elf uh races, I guess you could say, all generally live pretty long?

They’re the impetuous and fickle elf man-children who haven’t learned to slow down yet. Why else do you think the elf entry in the PHB states that they reach physical maturity at the same age as humans but don’t class themselves as adults until around 100 and throws in a bunch of elf childhood names to boot? My guess is it’s because they’re expecting many elf PCs to be between 20 and 100, getting their adventuring out of their system before they settle into their more sedate “adult” life. Like a really long gap year ...

 

[Helldritch]

An elf could adventure out of curiosity, to see the world. He could be in search of a magical item. It could even be out of boredom. Elves will adventures for many reasons. But once the goal is reached, he will probably want to retire. This is where good role play will come in handy.
Don't leave us now, we need you. Just one more please. Come on, we got this far together, let's go a bit further. Appealing to the sense of duty to an elf should be useless, but appealing to his sense of wonder should make wonders.

Edit: Strange where some words get missing or others appear when you are on your smart phone. The devils are in these devices! I swear!

 

[Warren Ellis]

Playing a race should be an occasion to expand your RP experience by experimenting a new way of thinking and point of view. Playing an irremediably evil race such as an orc in Greyhawk, should make you understand why the puny weakling that humans are, are so right in fearing you. Might makes right in the world of the orcs. We follow the chief because he is strong and his allies and underlings are strong too. But should they weaken, we will slay them and assume the mantle of leadership that will be our due. Honor is for the fools, we are not the nobles orcs of the Warcraft game. We are the warriors, the raiders, the slayers. We kill because we can. We take the lands that we want and we eradicate those that live in them to make room for us. When we retreat, it is to come back and to try again.

These are the orcs of Greyhawk. No pity, no remorse, no understanding beyond what is needed to kill. These are not the noble orcs from Warcraft or the Eberron setting. They are a plague and they embrace these notions wholeheartedly.

You know what this is making me imagine? Take orcs from Eberron or Scarred Lands or wherever, ones that are part of the playable races, and have them run into orcs like those from Greyhawk or wherever.

Imagine the sheer weirdness on both sides as they possibly see some sort of perversion of what they are.

Could be an interesting bit of roleplaying I imagine.