D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[the Jester]

The Magic card debate has stirred another thought- well, two, really- in my mind. Let's take Crusade, since it has been posted, as an example. Does it matter that there are versions with different art? All of a sudden, you take away the cross symbolism and the burning city in the background. You still have the name and game effect. How big of a difference does that make to people? Yes, the name is unfortunate, in that it references a series of wars of prejudice (and I'll point out that, while anti-Muslim sentiment might have been rooted in racism, not all the Crusades were to the Levant; there were a number of crusades against heretical Christians in Europe, too), but the effect- +1/+1 to all white creatures- is just a mana color-specific boost. In fact, it's mirrored for other colors in cards like Bad Moon and Sunken City. So does changing the art help to make this card more acceptable?

The second thought I had is this: yes, white racists have taken up the cross as a symbol, but it's a symbol with far wider meaning than just white racism/nationalism. At what point does considering it as a symbol of white nationalism amount to surrendering it to white nationalism? How do those who hold the cross as a symbol of, say, a branch of their faith that supports equal rights for all races defend it as a symbol? I get that, in this case, the confluence of imagery is very troublesome. And I'm neither a Christian nor one who views the symbolism of the cross very positively. But my girlfriend is a faithful Christian who strives to be inclusive, and who works hard to overcome the racist elements of her upbringing and the culture we live in, and who speaks out for racial equality when it comes up in conversation with her own family and friends who are less mindful about it. Where's the line? Better still, how do we find the line and navigate the issues so that she and those of her ilk can reclaim it from the racists who have taken it as their own? And you can extend this to other appropriated symbols of racism, such as Thor's hammer- racists like to use Viking/Norse mythology as a part of their pseudohistorical narrative, too. So how do you reclaim those symbols?

EDIT: To be clear, I have mixed feelings about some of the cards that got banned, but I am in favor of WotC taking a step against racism in general and am especially in favor of the banning of Pradesh Gypsies, as "gypsy" is absolutely a racist term.

 

[Cadence]

Omg there should be a law requiring it to be broadcast. And watched.

“I know noTHING!”

We're half way through season 2 with my little one. My other half saw them all growing up, but most of them are new to me

 

[bedir than]

Those defending the use of the Christian cross on Crusade as non-Supremacist will need to figure out why the artist felt that Christian imagery made sense in Magic: The Gathering, which had no other Christian imagery, except for the all white card that involves burning everything down.

 

[Cadence]

Those defending the use of the Christian cross on Crusade as non-Supremacist will need to figure out why the artist felt that Christian imagery made sense in Magic: The Gathering, which had no other Christian imagery, except for the all white card that involves burning everything down.

That art is from the first set. There wasn't a well defined M:TG world at that time, and card sets up through legends have real world art and quotes.

Three cards have Bible verses, two quote the Qu'ran, one has Allah in the name, another is part of Baghdad, and another has a cross on a knight. Twenty-five have a Shakespeare quote.

 

[Haldrik]

I'm not seeing how having some ethnicities have higher intelligence on average causes much less trouble than having some races have a penalty. The later allows the range to be the same and opens everything up to all players -- but it keeps the same stereotype.

Because, the ethnic group itself can (for whatever environmental or historical reasons) split off and form a different culture with different ability averages.

For example, you could have Wood Elf communities that are Grugach choosing a nomadic Barbarian life with high Strength on average, and at the very same time Wood Elf communities that are Copper Elf choosing a sedentary life in treehouse villages specializing as nature magic Druids with high Wisdom on average.

Meanwhile you can have individuals within each of these communities doing their own idiosyncratic thing, playing against the average.

It is all fluid − yet mechanically coherent!

Most importantly, there is now zero racist predeterminism. No racism.



You can have a tribe of Orcs that like wizardry and are smart.

 

[bedir than]

That art is from the first set. There wasn't a well defined M:TG world at that time, and card sets up through legends have real world art and quotes.

Three cards have Bible verses, two quote the Qu'ran, one has Allah in the name, another is part of Baghdad, and another has a cross on a knight. Twenty-five have a Shakespeare quote.

I admit that's the era I played in, when it launched just down the road back in 93. I have no recollection of other Christian imagery in the game. If it was there my mom probably wouldn't have been accusing me of worshipping Satan so frequently.

 

[Cadence]

Meanwhile you can have individuals within each of these communities doing their own idiosyncratic thing, playing against the average.

Most importantly, there is now zero racist predeterminism. No racism.

I mean, it's better without the predeterminism. But would the averages and tendencies lead to things like "well, on average they're not as smart but a few actually work at it" and "well, on average they specialize in thievery instead of honest crafts, so of course we stop and search them more. I mean, I know some good ones, but..." that are pretty bad?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

It's not just the cross. It's the combination of the name and artwork and/or effect. There are other cards in the game with crusade as part of the name. There are other cards in the game with a similar effect but with a different name and non-real-world-artwork. There's another card in the game with a knight and a cross on it that destroys black creatures. None of those were banned.

I'm guessing that even most folks in the states who hate this things don't want to overturn the 1st amendment to get rid of them.

I remember seeing Hogans Heroes on TV in Germany a few decades ago. Is that still ok to be shown?

I'm not advocating for or against the Crusade card. I can see the arguments for and against that.

Urriak stated that it's obvious the card should be banned because it's a symbol for white supremacists (which I've never once heard but let's go with it as being true). If it's true that it should be banned because of it being a white supremacy symbol, should we also then ban things that are even more strongly with white supremacists groups...like the cross itself or the swastika?

I ask this because a very big divide in the computer game world is the use of the swastika in historical based WW2 games. In America you can design, let's say a flight simulator, and have historically accurate markings on the planes. In Germany you cannot because of the symbol being banned.

So I am asking Urriak (or anyone that wants to respond) if they support a similar move with respect to crosses or swastikas vis-a-vis removing them from game art?

 

[TheSword]

Because, the ethnic group itself can (for whatever environmental or historical reasons) split off and form a different culture with different ability averages.

For example, you could have Wood Elf communities that are Grugach choosing a nomadic Barbarian life with high Strength on average, and at the very same time Wood Elf communities that are Copper Elf choosing a sedentary life in treehouse villages specializing as nature magic Druids with high Wisdom on average.

Meanwhile you can have individuals within each of these communities doing their own idiosyncratic thing, playing against the average.

It is all fluid − yet mechanically coherent!

Most importantly, there is now zero racist predeterminism. No racism.



You can have a tribe of Orcs that like wizardry and are smart.

Just out of interest how is saying Grugach elves are strong and get +1 Strength fundamentally different to saying half-orcs are strong and get +1 Strength.

I personally don’t have a problem with either but you seem to be saying one Isn’t racist and the other is.

Can you clarify how making one culture a subset of another is fundamentally different.

 

[dwayne]

so if there is no "bad guys" then what the hell is the point then, it is a fantasy setting with defined aliments and set things that are evil and bad. If you want to introduce real world bull crap into a made up game then buddy your an idiot. i play games to get away from this messed up crazy world bash a few evil orcs kill some of the nasty vile drow who worship the sadistic evil spider queen. I do agree the cultural separation from races would be interesting, but the traditional races elves, dwarves, gnomes, halfling, and such are iconic. So are the evil barbaric orcs and the deep doweling vile sadistic drow, if anyone draws a distinction between them and a real human race that's their issue. as to physical stats that is a purely race thing and should remain as such, you could change the weapons, the stone work, or many other things that some get as cultural or do to the location they were raised. I had a game i made that had evil sea fairing dwarves who were ship builders and raided groups of islands. They could not work stone and hated going under ground and knew how to swim. This had been don in some ways in the past with like the halfings of darksun being savage cannibals, but physical bonus remained the same and should, a halfling can never be as strong as a Minotaur, as the other is much bigger and it is physically better and geared to it.