WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Sacrosanct]

I suspect there will be some sellers of Oriental Adventures on eBay who are very happy about the speculative conjecture of OA no longer being published by WotC.

$45 and counting on ebay right now.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would really love to see a modern book for 5e or Pathfinder based on a far eastern campaign setting. Leave out the problematic and offensive stereotypes and language, and get a Chinese, Japanese and Korean consultant. Just ancient Korean warfare alone is fantastic material for roleplaying. And there is a treasure trove of mythological beasts out there to fill multiple Monster Manuals. For years I have wanted to see more monsters from cultures other than Europe and Greek mythology. They could take a ton of monsters from Philipino lore as well. I think this big outcry is a huge opportunity to do it right. But don't edit or remove old books.

I agree with this, and I think it is telling that most of the first posts all agreed on one thing.

Add a disclaimer about "this book is 50 years old and may contain some offensive stereotypes" and then do better in the future.

Heck, I agree, banning the sale of the book is probably a step too far, but I also think that dismissing this as "there was nothing offensive ever in here and people are making things up" is also wrong.

The best thing would be to get some real, fairly accurate portrayals of myths and monsters and cultures, because they can be fascinating. Though, I have mutliple friends with degrees in Japanese studies, one of whom is making a japanese themed game, and I have to acknowledge, there is some stuff in there that will never see the light of day (if you aren't familiar with tanuki... I am, because my friend loves to bring them up constantly.)

Book is only 260 pages.
How large it must be to address all issues that you stated?

And it is made up fantasy that too inspiration from Asian cultures. Of course it will not be a carbon copy and that there will be some mashup with multiple cultures.

Faerun is close to medieval Europe, and it sure is not a copy of it. Nor should it be.

Well, the book as written isn't going to change. But if we are talking about a new book, as big as it needs to be.

Which, frankly, isn't even that big.

Faerun is actually a great example if you think about it critically. Faerun is supposed to be Europe, is there a difference between Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Silverymoon, Myth Drannor and Neverwinter? To my understanding yes, each one is a different culture and place.

Is that the case with Kara-Tur or Rokugan? I doubt it. I doubt they made that area and then divided the cultures up between the various regions like they did with Faerun and the European cultures. Instead, they are all mashed together and presented as a single culture. Which, is problematic.

I mean, we don't have to expand on why pointing to Italy, Germany, Spain, England and France and saying "well, you guys are all essentially the exact same people" would be problematic and wrong, why do we need to expand upon it for Vietnam, China, Korea, Japan, Mongolia, et all?

And yet people here happily talk about European culture and mix everything together which of course also happens in D&D books.

Also, please who are those "Asian people" you are talking about? Do you mean Koreans? Chinese? And how many of them have actually objected to Oriental Adventures?

Why do posters always want exact demographical data to refute their points? "Well, if you can't show that exactly 33% of all DnD players are offended then it doesn't matter"

Why? And why do I have to be the one to go looking for data that doesn't exist?

Then there would be no D&D anymore.

If treating the cultures of real people with respect means DnD ceases to exist, then DnD isn't worth keeping around.

Since that isn't the case, I feel confident in saying it again. Every race and culture should be treated with respect in our media.

It struck me, people really thought that Oriental Adventures was supposed to be some detailed cultural work that carefully created a nuanced and intricate fantasy world that didn't rely on any stereotypes of any kind?

Really? In D&D? We don't even get that in D&D based on European culture.

. . .to a typical American audience in the 1980's, when they wanted a game that was East-Asian themed, they were wanting something based on the popular media of the day. That would have means 1970's Kung Fu movies, Kurosawa's samurai epics, and the ninja craze of the 1980's.

A book that was a carefully constructed cultural study of East Asia and a nuanced fantasy depiction that didn't rely on any stereotypes or cultural preconceptions, that didn't focus on martial arts action and ninjas and samurai and mystics. . .would have landed with warm plop on bookshelves and never been picked up. It would have been a footnote in TSR history about being part of how Gygax was forced out of the company because his name was on it.

You think gamers were wanting a lengthy cultural treatise? They wanted (and I'm willing to bet still want) something that feels more like an action movie than a nuanced cultural study. Complaining that it's focused on honor and martial arts and mysticism when players are walking into a game thinking of samurai movies and kung fu movies is going back and trying to apply cultural standards of 2020 to a book from 1985 and whining when everyone doesn't jump onboard with the revisionist history.

What?

How is recognizing that those 70's Kung Fu movies, samurai epics and the ninja craze were all a little bit racist mean that we can't say in 2020 "hey, that old stuff we made was a little bit racist."

Again, no one on this thread is calling for the book to be banned and purged from the internet. Most of us agree that a disclaimer of "hey, this book is 50 years old and has some problematic elements" is the right step.

And that moving forward with a setting like Kara-tur in the future (as in 2020 and beyond, not 1980) we should treat those cultures with more respect and nuance.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Again, no one on this thread is calling for the book to be banned and purged from the internet. Most of us agree that a disclaimer of "hey, this book is 50 years old and has some problematic elements" is the right step.

I liked your post, but if this was correct, there wouldn't be much to discuss (IMO!). There are several people who have adopted various versions of, "Sure, get rid of it. After all, there might be a library somewhere that has a copy." That's as hard for me to agree with as those who don't understand why Oriental Adventures is problematic.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Seriously, this is all about one guy with a podcast trying to drive up hype for his podcast by looking for things to complain about.

And if that is true... then nothing will happen. The OA will remain on DriveThru and you can buy a copy of it tomorrow.

But... the fact that so many of you are upset about this issue leads me to believe that you all know in the back of your minds that it ISN'T just "one guy with a podcast trying to drive up hype for his podcast". It's more than that. And that's why you are desperately afraid that WotC might actually do it and are all trying your hardest to discount it all as nonsense so that they won't.

Times, they are a changin'.

For me? I'm lucky. I realized long ago that if Oriental Adventures on PDF was important to me, I would have bought the freaking thing already! Or at the barest minimum gone over to buy it NOW so that I had a copy of it if DriveThru does indeed decide to listen to that one guy with a podcast. And if I had one recommendation... you all should go over and buy your copy now while you still can too! Otherwise you might never get another chance to pick up the PDF of a book you probably already owned at one point and then got rid of because you realized you had no intention of actually ever playing it.

 

[Derren]

Why do posters always want exact demographical data to refute their points? "Well, if you can't show that exactly 33% of all DnD players are offended then it doesn't matter"

Why? And why do I have to be the one to go looking for data that doesn't exist?



If treating the cultures of real people with respect means DnD ceases to exist, then DnD isn't worth keeping around.

Since that isn't the case, I feel confident in saying it again. Every race and culture should be treated with respect in our media.

You don't see the problem with you deciding several cultures getting mashed together is an issue but then talking about "Asian people"?
Also yes, some demographical data would be nice as otherwise you have a tiny group of people pretending to speak for a whole culture.

Also, why do you think D&D would still exist if European cultures had to be handled with the same kind or respect than what people demand from non-European cultures?
D&D and FR is a huge mix of European stereotypes from different cultures and ages. If you had to apply the same kind of respect to them than what is demanded here you can throw out D&D completely.

 

[Mercurius]

How many is that, exactly? Do you want to claim your personal experince is a representative sample?

Umm, are you holding the same standards to those people who say "the black guy at my table" or "some Asians..."?

A lot of people are claiming their anecdotal experience is representational. Might as well be fair about it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

You don't see the problem with you deciding several cultures getting mashed together is an issue but then talking about "Asian people"?
Also yes, some demographical data would be nice as otherwise you have a tiny group of people pretending to speak for a whole culture.

Also, why do you think D&D would still exist if European cultures had to be handled with the same kind or respect than what people demand from non-European cultures?
D&D and FR is a huge mix of European stereotypes from different cultures and ages. If you had to apply the same kind of respect to them than what is demanded here you can throw out D&D completely.

It's because you aren't complaining hard enough. Complain harder. The non-European people are doing it enough that finally some of the Europeans are starting to listen. So don't just sit there whining about it. Get on it! Get to work! I mean, if you are a White American you probably should have an easy time of it, if history is any indication.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Because that sure seems to be what people are offended by.

They're getting upset that OA relied on stereotypes and presented a fairly superficial look at a fantasy version of East-Asian culture, instead of being some detailed monograph on a fantasy culture derived from East-Asian cultures but didn't use anything that could be called stereotypical.

I marked the part you're not understanding or exaggerating.

$45 and counting on ebay right now.

My prediction: in the short term prices shoot up.
In the long term prices plummet, as the people who speculated on the market realize that nobody actually wants OA.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And if that is true... then nothing will happen. The OA will remain on DriveThru and you can buy a copy of it tomorrow.

But... the fact that so many of you are upset about this issue leads me to believe that you all know in the back of your minds that it ISN'T just "one guy with a podcast trying to drive up hype for his podcast". It's more than that.

Two things-

1. Yes, of course we have copies. I have a hardcopy. Well, mostly looseleaf pages now, but you get the idea. And a pdf copy. Of course, despite my backups, etc., there is the possibility that something can happen; hurricane, tornado, flood, etc. And then I'd have to start over. And one thing I'd need to get (after house, safety, and security) is copies of all of my OD&D and 1e books. Which might not be possible. I had to regain copies of many of my books once, some time ago, and it was difficult. I don't want to have to rely on going to Boston's library every time I need to refer to a book.

2. The reason that it's more than that is because we are quickly seeing things disappear and the reasoning, well, it's not always clear. Take the "Drow" episode of Community. That is an episode from less than ten years ago, that was mocking the racist use of blackface, and it has disappeared. Will it come back, but with a warning? Only on DVD (or some other medium)? Never? I don't know.

You're right that there is something going on, and most of it is a long-overdue reckoning that very much approve of. But we are also rapidly seeing the removal of historical media, sometimes for unclear reasons. I think people have a right to be concerned.

And while I am not a huge fan of slippery slope arguments, anyone who is vaguely familiar with the older materials knows that this won't end with OA.

 

[Guest 6801328]

You're right that there is something going on, and most of it is a long-overdue reckoning that very much approve of. But we are also rapidly seeing the removal of historical media, sometimes for unclear reasons. I think people have a right to be concerned.

This all might very well go too far. In fact I'm sure it will: pendulums tend to do that.

And my answer is: so? I'd much, much rather go too far than not far enough. I'd rather have obscure, out-of-print game supplements be hard to get, than to be so cautious and fearful of change that the long, long overdue reckoning doesn't really happen.

I do think I know why people are insisting on describing this as WotC being "forced" to remove material. Because if it's voluntary the accusation of "censorship" doesn't really stick.