WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Oh yes they must be right about its offense because they are Asian. :rolleyes:

You mean the people to whom the word lables shouldn't be the ones to decide that the lable is offensive? I mean, how do you actually defend that position?

EDIT: And apparently Asian RPGers who may not agree with them, their voices are completely ignored.

Nice try, but no. It just means that they don't get to decide what is offensive to others or override their opinions of those that are offended.

Surely, if this was some other racial epiteth you wouldn't be making the same argument.
 

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If you’re mad about inaccurate Viking analogues, speak up in your own thread. Don’t try to derail a conversation about AoE thing else.

I don't think that was his point. I think the point was that since that was ok and this is basically the same thing than this is ok too.
 


Also, why the heck is the asian-ish culture always to the east and the vikingish culture always to the north!? Have a little creativity developers!

And why is the north specifically always called out as frozen? Because I can't think of ANY campaign worlds that are officially supposed to just have one hemisphere and no south pole.
 

Sadras

Legend
You mean the people to whom the word lables shouldn't be the ones to decide that the lable is offensive? I mean, how do you actually defend that position?

Just to play catchup - I'm ok with a disclaimer page. I'm not so ok with binning the book.
A series of videos were made were they give reasons for them being offended.
A 14 wisdom on a 1e Samurai is one of them, because not all Samurai were wise.
At that point I was offended because they wasted enough of my time.

Nice try, but no. It just means that they don't get to decide what is offensive to others or override their opinions of those that are offended.

Sure, they can be offended, just don't expect everyone to take them seriously given many of the justifications they provided.
 

GreyLord

Legend
It's only in the past year or so that I've become interested in decolonial theory, and even then my area of focus is on Black and Indigenous (lack of) voices, both in real life and in media. Asian representation in Western media is something I've only recently been seriously thinking on.

Off topic, but this strikes me as an interesting thing. The study of history is normally the study of writing, and the written histories that have come out from various sources. Primary sources are normally the best. In the past (and some would say, it was from a source of them being in power) much of history that was influential on our study of history came from those in power in colonial eras. Thus, a majority of our history presented in the 20th century came from French, Spanish (European), Dutch, and English historians.

In English speaking nations, it came strongly from English historians, though later starting in the latter part of he 19th century, United States Historians start to have more influence on English speaking people's interpretation of history.

As it is based on the writings of those historians, most of them would read and write their native language. In regards to history written in English, many were versed in English, French, Greek, and Latin. Some focused on Old English and Germanic languages. Most did not understand languages from Tribes in North America (or Africa either, though there were actually empires and mighty Kingdoms established in Africa as well that do not really have their histories known for many of the modern histories studied today), or languages outside of the European sphere, and those that did were not historians generally.

I wonder now, after reading your comment, if that is one reason why the history many learn in school of past cultures is more from the bias of the European and colonial experience. They literally did not use other sources outside that of colonial and European writings for their primary sources for the most part.

You probably would know more on that idea or topic.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
I got exactly the opposite impression. I got the impression that the moral was supposed to be that white people are bad and that the whole thing was a centuries late allegory about European colonialism and/or the westward expansion in America.

it is but also a white saviour story.
 

Also, why the heck is the asian-ish culture always to the east and the vikingish culture always to the north!? Have a little creativity developers!

And why is the north specifically always called out as frozen? Because I can't think of ANY campaign worlds that are officially supposed to just have one hemisphere and no south pole.

This bothers me as well. It is as if writers think that we wouldn't understand a particular fantasy culture is Asian-themed unless they literally also put it in the east of their world.

For the record, I have a multitude of fantasy cultures in my homebrew pirate campaign setting that include many that are based on, and inspired by historical Asian cultures. And they are not in the east by default, although I suppose that depends on where you are on the planet. But they are all over the place.

As for the depiction of vikings in media, I find it inoffensive (as I suspect most people do) but of course wildly inaccurate. Historical vikings are a lot more interesting than the 2 dimensional plunderers that we always see.
 

Aldarc

Legend
At what point does "the wider hobby" emerge, though?
From looking at the aggregate whole, looking at the products that are being made, looking at the demand, etc. And as I said before, Mystara didn't rate highly on WotC's own internal evaluation regarding most popular settings. Here's what WotC told us in their own words:
The popularity of settings in the survey fell into three distinct clusters. Not surprisingly, our most popular settings from prior editions landed at the top of the rankings, with Eberron, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, and the Forgotten Realms all proving equally popular. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Spelljammer all shared a similar level of second-tier popularity, followed by a fairly steep drop-off to the rest of the settings.
Mystara is not even mentioned; it is merely one of "the rest" in the lowest tier.

To switch it up: if Mystara was a big deal in the US but merely a fringe setting in Italy would you still claim it only had fringe status "in regards to D&D"? If no, that's a very US-centric viewpoint; and the hobby is much bigger than just the US.
If Mystara was big in the US but fringe in Italy, then it would probably have received further publications in 3rd through 5th edition, no? The fact that Mystara is not big in the US (or for WotC's poll respondents) says something about the likelihood that future Mystara products will be published. See, I'm not sure if it's US-centric viewpoint so much as an understanding that the US and Canada are historically the largest markets for D&D, along with other predominately English-speaking nations, as is natural for a US-created hobby with a US-based company.

Der Schwarze Auge is not big in the United States, but it is big here in Germany and Austria - outselling D&D even - because this RPG was created by and for a German-speaking audience, only later expanding to other languages and markets. Sure, it has a following in the United States, but I suspect that its primary market in Germany and Austria has a lot more influence on the direction the game goes and how the "wider hobby" looks for Der Schwarze Auge.

That Mystara's a big deal anywhere is worth noting - and, in this case, celebrating! :) EDIT to add: celebrating not due to any potentially-offensive themes etc. but due to it being what's left of Arneson's setting, and due to my being a Mystara fan. :)
I agree that it's nice seeing strong fan communities for old settings.
 


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