RangerWickett
Legend
This is the best, most concise explanation for why I like admire game.
Last of Us 2 discussion
Imaculata
Hero
I think as soon as someone starts comparing the story of The Last of Us 2 to big Hollywood movies, the likes of Quentin Tarantino, they're done. You can no longer take them serious. Some people even went as far as to compare the game to Schindler's List! Comparing a simple post apocalyptic zombie stealth game with a historical movie about WWII directed by one of the best directors of our time. Fortunately that was then massively mocked online, and rightly so. The dialogue of the game is good, the voice acting is good... but the story does not even come close to that of a big Hollywood movie. Certainly not a Tarantino movie, or Schindler's List! Honestly, I don't even think it is a good story to begin with:
Joel is beaten to death by Abby through a random meet up and Ellie then wants revenge. Then we play as Abby for a painfully long time and the game tries really hard to make you like her and feel guilty about killing her friends and her dog. Then the game moves towards a predictable ending where Ellie inevitably abandons her quest for revenge and lives happily ever after with Dina... and then there is an extra last act, where Ellie goes on a quest for revenge yet again, only to let Abby go.... again.
That is not a good story. That is poor writing, and poor pacing. Plus several of the established characters from the first game act in ways that do not seem in line with how they were presented in the original game. The game is mean spirited and unpleasant, with an unfulfilling ending and not much interesting to say other than "violence is bad"; a message kind of lost in all the neck-shanking and horrid death gurgles of the hundreds of people you slaughter.
I get why some fans are mad that Joel was killed. Its not just the fact that they killed off a beloved character, but how they did it, and how they try to manipulate your emotions about it to get you onboard with Ellie's quest for revenge. And with Joel gone, the game finds itself running painfully low on likeable characters. I disliked every character in this game.
For an alternate analysis of the game, check Jim Sterling's excellent video. He does a pretty good job:
Now, I'm not saying it is a bad game. But it does not deserve as much praise as the developers (and many fans) seem to think it does. I get that the violence is not for me, that is just my personal taste. But on an objective level, the story is just bare bones. There's hardly any story there. And the gameplay I also find lacking. The bugs are undeniable and full on display. And the gameplay feels repetitive and outstays its welcome. By the time I reached the last act, I wanted it to be over, and there were at least a few more hours of neck-shanking people and torture porn.
Joel is beaten to death by Abby through a random meet up and Ellie then wants revenge. Then we play as Abby for a painfully long time and the game tries really hard to make you like her and feel guilty about killing her friends and her dog. Then the game moves towards a predictable ending where Ellie inevitably abandons her quest for revenge and lives happily ever after with Dina... and then there is an extra last act, where Ellie goes on a quest for revenge yet again, only to let Abby go.... again.
That is not a good story. That is poor writing, and poor pacing. Plus several of the established characters from the first game act in ways that do not seem in line with how they were presented in the original game. The game is mean spirited and unpleasant, with an unfulfilling ending and not much interesting to say other than "violence is bad"; a message kind of lost in all the neck-shanking and horrid death gurgles of the hundreds of people you slaughter.
I get why some fans are mad that Joel was killed. Its not just the fact that they killed off a beloved character, but how they did it, and how they try to manipulate your emotions about it to get you onboard with Ellie's quest for revenge. And with Joel gone, the game finds itself running painfully low on likeable characters. I disliked every character in this game.
For an alternate analysis of the game, check Jim Sterling's excellent video. He does a pretty good job:
Now, I'm not saying it is a bad game. But it does not deserve as much praise as the developers (and many fans) seem to think it does. I get that the violence is not for me, that is just my personal taste. But on an objective level, the story is just bare bones. There's hardly any story there. And the gameplay I also find lacking. The bugs are undeniable and full on display. And the gameplay feels repetitive and outstays its welcome. By the time I reached the last act, I wanted it to be over, and there were at least a few more hours of neck-shanking people and torture porn.
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RangerWickett
Legend
Do you think that if you played as Abby from the start - just the stuff in Seattle, with occasional flashbacks - you would have enjoyed her storyline? You play through her losing her dad to Joel, don't see her kill Joel, but instead cut to her working to protect her faction in a city, and feeling embittered and unfulfilled until she meets a kid in trouble?
Because I think that's a great story.
The fact that you say, 'we play as Abby for a painfully long time' makes me think you just weren't enjoying her story as its own story.
Because I think that's a great story.
The fact that you say, 'we play as Abby for a painfully long time' makes me think you just weren't enjoying her story as its own story.
Imaculata
Hero
You're right, I didn't. You play as Abby right after she kills a beloved character, and then the game tries for hours to make you like her. It feels manipulative, and I just didn't buy into it.
I think what this game lacked, is focus. I think I could have enjoyed this game if it was just about Abby, or just about Ellie. But the two protagonists don't work for me. It also feels as if Joel's death is abused by the writers to force Ellie into a role that doesn't fit her, and makes her into a different character from the one in the original game.
By the end of it all, you hate Ellie, and I don't think that's a good thing. Plus they even have you fight Ellie as Abby.... just awful.
RangerWickett
Legend
Yeah, this Jim video has the same . . . hm, how to describe it?
Have you ever tried to explain some tech support thing to someone - click this, press that button, do this thing - and they just don't get it? And while not getting it, they get upset at the computer or TV or whatever, because they think it's badly designed? But really they're just failing to understand how it works?
That's how I feel when I hear Jim's complaints, and many other peoples. They just don't get it. They are misunderstanding what the game is doing, and they're blaming it for doing that thing badly.
About 8:45, Jim's talking about how the game wants you to recognize that NPCs are real people, and he sort of goes, "Duh, that's obvious! I don't need you to tell me that!"
But the fact that he's irked at that, and then irked that he is being made to play as Abby, and that he's not enjoying Abby's story as much as Ellie's, that's showing that he still is angry at Abby. He complains about the game manipulating you to like Abby, with a dog and such. He says this like it's a bad thing, like in the first game you weren't just as manipulated to like Ellie and feel for Joel. The only reason he finds this manipulation a problem, is because he hates Abby, and doesn't want to like her.
If you played Abby's story standalone, it'd be a fun game that follows beats very similar to TLOU1, in a cool environment, with some great setpieces. Yet so many people are saying they don't like it . . . because they don't like Abby.
If I were an English teacher and Jim turned this essay into me and I was supposed to grade it, I'd give it a B, but not an A, because he makes valid points about how the gameplay isn't always conducive to you coming to empathize with Abby. I mean, he gets that he's supposed to empathize with Abby. But he doesn't. And if he doesn't empathize with her, but does with Ellie, that never indicates that he doesn't understand the story.
You're not simply watching a revenge story where the protagonist comes to a realization at the end that revenge is pointless. You are living through that. The game wants you to be angry at Abby, and then to stop being angry at Abby.
And you're not supposed to hate Ellie either. You're supposed to feel sorry for these people, and see that at the end they're on paths toward healing. That's why we loved the first game, because it was about Joel changing from being heartless to being able to love and care again. In that game, we were sort of going through what Joel felt. We fell in love with Ellie too, and that was easy, because she's adorable, and most of us didn't lose a daughter to a zombie apocalypse.
This is much harder. We're supposed to go through what Ellie feels, and forgive Abby, and most people are only getting part way through it.
Have you ever tried to explain some tech support thing to someone - click this, press that button, do this thing - and they just don't get it? And while not getting it, they get upset at the computer or TV or whatever, because they think it's badly designed? But really they're just failing to understand how it works?
That's how I feel when I hear Jim's complaints, and many other peoples. They just don't get it. They are misunderstanding what the game is doing, and they're blaming it for doing that thing badly.
About 8:45, Jim's talking about how the game wants you to recognize that NPCs are real people, and he sort of goes, "Duh, that's obvious! I don't need you to tell me that!"
But the fact that he's irked at that, and then irked that he is being made to play as Abby, and that he's not enjoying Abby's story as much as Ellie's, that's showing that he still is angry at Abby. He complains about the game manipulating you to like Abby, with a dog and such. He says this like it's a bad thing, like in the first game you weren't just as manipulated to like Ellie and feel for Joel. The only reason he finds this manipulation a problem, is because he hates Abby, and doesn't want to like her.
If you played Abby's story standalone, it'd be a fun game that follows beats very similar to TLOU1, in a cool environment, with some great setpieces. Yet so many people are saying they don't like it . . . because they don't like Abby.
If I were an English teacher and Jim turned this essay into me and I was supposed to grade it, I'd give it a B, but not an A, because he makes valid points about how the gameplay isn't always conducive to you coming to empathize with Abby. I mean, he gets that he's supposed to empathize with Abby. But he doesn't. And if he doesn't empathize with her, but does with Ellie, that never indicates that he doesn't understand the story.
You're not simply watching a revenge story where the protagonist comes to a realization at the end that revenge is pointless. You are living through that. The game wants you to be angry at Abby, and then to stop being angry at Abby.
And you're not supposed to hate Ellie either. You're supposed to feel sorry for these people, and see that at the end they're on paths toward healing. That's why we loved the first game, because it was about Joel changing from being heartless to being able to love and care again. In that game, we were sort of going through what Joel felt. We fell in love with Ellie too, and that was easy, because she's adorable, and most of us didn't lose a daughter to a zombie apocalypse.
This is much harder. We're supposed to go through what Ellie feels, and forgive Abby, and most people are only getting part way through it.
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Imaculata
Hero
I'm strongly going to disagree with you there on The Last of Us part 1. It earned the love of the player for its characters, without it ever feeling manipulative. Part 2 is different, which is why so many players have a negative response to the game's story and characters.
I think you misunderstand the issue when you say that people who dislike the story "just don't get it". They absolutely get it. But the game failed to connect with a lot of people. That is the fault of the game, not its players. Many of the people who dislike this game, loved part 1.
I think it is undeniable that part 2 is more violent than part 1 as well. There's people getting shanked in the throat as you hear their death gurgles, people being hanged and disembowled, and one character having their arm broken with a hammer.
My question is: is all this grotesque violence needed to tell this story?
I think you misunderstand the issue when you say that people who dislike the story "just don't get it". They absolutely get it. But the game failed to connect with a lot of people. That is the fault of the game, not its players. Many of the people who dislike this game, loved part 1.
I think it is undeniable that part 2 is more violent than part 1 as well. There's people getting shanked in the throat as you hear their death gurgles, people being hanged and disembowled, and one character having their arm broken with a hammer.
My question is: is all this grotesque violence needed to tell this story?
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RangerWickett
Legend
No, the violence isn't necessary. That's my only real complaint about the game. There should have been more ways to deal with human enemies that weren't killing or stealthing. Like, even if you could shoot someone in the knee to immobilize but not kill them, then run past them, that would have helped.
Imaculata
Hero
There are a ton of different directions they could have taken this story in. They could have expanded on the bond of the characters we know and love, perhaps leaving Joel's death to the end. They could also have pushed the infected plot further. The infection could have gotten worse, or a new character who is immune could have been introduced. Most importantly, I think most players wanted to see more of Joel and Ellie, without the death of Joel being exploited, and established characters being twisted, to introduce and make us like a new main character. The reveal regarding Joel's lie could have been a good pay off to save for the end. But instead we got none of the loveable bond that made us like the first game.
RangerWickett
Legend
But they didn't want to tell that story, and that story wouldn't have been novel or challenging to concepts of what video game storytelling could be the way the first game was.
Those story ideas you mention, they sound a lot like what the Uncharted franchise is. You like Coke, so they give you more Coke. Maybe with Vanilla or Cherry, but it's Coke. It's a commodity.
TLOU already did the story of Joel and Ellie bonding. There's no need to tell that story again.
Those story ideas you mention, they sound a lot like what the Uncharted franchise is. You like Coke, so they give you more Coke. Maybe with Vanilla or Cherry, but it's Coke. It's a commodity.
TLOU already did the story of Joel and Ellie bonding. There's no need to tell that story again.
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
I pretty much agree with your analysis @Manbearcat .
Talking about The Last of Us 2 is difficult for me because while I am not a fan of the game many of the criticisms I see from people who are uncritical fans of Joel really turn me off. I view The Last of Us 2 much like I do latter day Game of Thrones. Time after time when the writers were at a crossroads they took the easy route for shock value. At times it feels like human misery porn. Bad people do bad things to other bad people for bad reasons.
On a storytelling level it still feels better than most video game faire, but it lacks the poignancy of the first game. The characters do not feel nearly as human to me.
Talking about The Last of Us 2 is difficult for me because while I am not a fan of the game many of the criticisms I see from people who are uncritical fans of Joel really turn me off. I view The Last of Us 2 much like I do latter day Game of Thrones. Time after time when the writers were at a crossroads they took the easy route for shock value. At times it feels like human misery porn. Bad people do bad things to other bad people for bad reasons.
On a storytelling level it still feels better than most video game faire, but it lacks the poignancy of the first game. The characters do not feel nearly as human to me.
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