WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Danzauker]

I am quite familiar with 2E and the kit system. I should perhaps have been more specific above that I was outlining classes in general. You have hit on an example, in the Savage, where there is indeed a stereotype of sorts at work. You can indeed play that character in a bunch of ways, but the kit itself is based in some slightly uncomfortable colonialist imagery of non-European cultures. A lot of that is loaded into the word 'Savage' which is undoubtedly a loaded term with racist overtones. The word 'primitive' also comes pre-loaded with a lot of negative connotations.

In both cases the issue is 'savage' or 'primitive' compared to what? With the answer generally being European culture, often specifically 'white' northern European culture. If you want to represent a culture like that without the racists and colonial overtones, then it should be described in its own terms, rather than in terms that implicitly index a pejorative comparison to some other, ostensibly superior culture.

Also, I'll point out that the phrase 'Noble Savage' is probably one you want to avoid. It's a specific term related to some pretty egregious racial stereotyping.

I wholehearted agree that some other word to indicate a culture with a lower technology than ancient Greece instead of "savage" would be more appropriate.

it fails me to find a better word. All I can think of are inadequate or nowadays considered offensive. Aboriginal, native, primitive... it's not easy.

 

[Aldarc]

IIRC Romanian is the language that shares the most similarities with Latin.

According to ethnolinguists and classicists, the closest language to Latin is Sardinian.

 

[Danzauker]

According to ethnolinguists and classicists, the closest language to Latin is Sardinian.

Yes, since Sardinia is a region of Italy and we usually consider it a dialect of Italian (it's not, but actually many "dialects" of Italy are actually distinct languages) it always slips me. I also remember that much depend on the way you rank the language. If you look at the morphology, the number of loan worlds, the phonetics...

 

[Aldarc]

As the saying goes, a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.

 

[Fenris-77]

The difference is that the role, the mission of school is to educate people. If it can't, it has failed.

The role of fiction is to entertain. You can entertain while educating and educate when you entertain, but that's another story.

Your first statement is undoubtedly true, but school can do nothing without students who wan to learn and take ownership of their own learning. The 'responsibility' lies with the student, regardless of the mission of the school system. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. You can encourage and cajole, you can find materials that target specific student interest, you can provide handholds and access points to the material at a variety of levels, but you can't 'make' someone learn anything.

One role of fiction is to entertain, that not it's only role. Fiction can also provoke, inform, relate, synthesize and all manner of other things.

 

[Voadam]

IIRC Romanian is the language that shares the most similarities with Latin.

Sounds plausible.

 

[Danzauker]

Your first statement is undoubtedly true, but school can do nothing without students who wan to learn and take ownership of their own learning. The 'responsibility' lies with the student, regardless of the mission of the school system. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. You can encourage and cajole, you can find materials that target specific student interest, you can provide handholds and access points to the material at a variety of levels, but you can't 'make' someone learn anything.

Then, as often does, it ultimately and unfortunately fails. True, if one does not want to learn, there's not much you can do. Still if the school does not give you the means to learn, it's even worse.

One

role of fiction is to entertain, that not it's only role. Fiction can also provoke, inform, relate, synthesize and all manner of other things.

All you listed are forms of entertainment. If I like to be provoked, i'll choose media and authors that do it. As you say, they can do it, not they must. Entertainment does not have a moral or law requirement to teach. School has.

 

[Aldarc]

Fiction not having a moral law to educate does not exclude or absolve creatives from having a moral responsibility for respecting the integrity of other peoples and cultures.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's an order of magnitude less, yes, but two-hundred years ago is still TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO

Assuming people live at least 50 years, that is the time of the current generations great-grandparents. That is still very recent.

Yes. The Spanish took offense to their contents. They were not compatible with their ideology.

I don't like how casually this is phrased. This was not just a horrific crime against people, but a blight upon the Spanish for committing such atrocities, and tied to the destruction of people and cultures around the world.

@Chaosmancer and @MoonSong I do not believe you'll have anyone against cultural consultants being hired by larger RPG production companies like WotC. Even @The Glen was fortunate enough to have assistance from 1 for his revised Atruaghin Clan Gazetteer.

I'm not entirely convinced, but it has been a rough week, so that might just be cynicism and miscommunication.

BUT two things I need to highlight, which you would already know

1 - Hiring cultural consultants is no guarantee, that something will not offend someone.

Of course not

2 - It is the nature of setting books to cherry pick content from cultures for the RPG fantastical people, to pull flavorful customs, cuisines, peculiarities, superstitions, monsters, mythology and the like. Now if there is a book on Asia, LatinAmerica, Africa, Ancient America - it will not and cannot cover all cultures, all people, all whatever. It will likely be a pastiche that will satisfy a certain page count, enough to slap a title on it. It is not a history text book and not every word is meant to offend.

i.e. the mystical lands of Kara-Tur
IMO, the word mystical is not a word that should be viewed as offensive - it is an evocative word yes, but as gamers we thrive on the use of beautifully evocative words that help bring to life these words in our imagination. It is not meant to slight any nation or culture. There needs to be some understanding on this.

Depending on how you cherry pick is the key. IF you set something in the southern hemisphere as your location, and make it a drug-filled jungle full of naked savages. Well, you cherry-picked, but you took the worst possible approach for your pastiche.

And, sure, no one is going to be perfect and no depiction is going to be perfect. But, when discussions of this nature get met with accusations of book burning and calls to keep politics out of the game... you have to wonder if people really even care enough to try and be better in the future, or if they just want to feel secure in the knowledge that the world is exactly like they think it is.

Yes, Mystical is a great evocative word, but at the same time, the Far East is constantly portrayed as mysterious and magical and strange, and a lot of people are sick of it. Also, here is a very valid question. What makes Kara-Tur more mystical than Silverymoon or Mhiilamniir? Faerun is crawling with wizards and sages. There are at least two entire countries whose governments are entirely wizards.

Why then would we describe Kara-Tur as any more mystical or mysterious than any of those other places? Just because it is the Far East pastiche? That would be a problem, even if no offense is meant, it is falling into a trope that has been around for a long time.

The difference is that the role, the mission of school is to educate people. If it can't, it has failed.

The role of fiction is to entertain. You can entertain while educating and educate when you entertain, but that's another story.

You know, I'm reminded of Moana. Great movie, very entertaining. Do people remember the controversy around Maui? The trickster demigod who was played the by The Rock? A lot of Pacific Islanders were upset with Maui's appearance and attitude, and one of their complaints always stuck out to me.

He was too muscular. Too big.

See, in the original myths Maui is a skinny teenager, that is why he is a trickster and so many of his mythical victories came about by being clever, or relying on the help of his sister. That was part of the power of the stories, was that this guy was not physically imposing.

And my first thought is that wouldn't have been a big change, but then I started remembering other scenes. Scenes of him charging in with his massive fish hook, trying to overpower his enemies. That isn't Maui though, that isn't the type of character he was to a lot of these people.

I don't think changing him to be scrawny would have ruined the story, made it less entertaining. In fact, without the easy route of him being confident and arrogant because he was big and strong, the story might have been more subtle in that aspect with it being because he was sure he was the smartest and most clever guy in the room.

But, we didn't get that. And the movie is still entertaining, but if there hadn't had been a controversy, I would have never known that I needed to look up his real appearance and personality.

 

[Danzauker]

As the saying goes, a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.

True.