D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Bagpuss]

#1. Do not ask where they are from if they are born in the US or Europe. This is annoying. They go to cons, they go to game stores and people ask them where they are from. They say they are American or born in the UK, and then they are asked..yes...but where are you really from...or...but where is your family from. This implies they are still foreign and NOT really American or European. This happens all the time among gamers. This is not polite. They are just as (insert whatever nation you are in) as anyone else born in that nation.

Gamers that ARE from Asia don't mind being asked this question, as long as it is respectful. However, they do not like being confused or called as being from a place they are not (eg. a Korean individual being called Japanese or vice versa...etc, or Japanese being called Chinese...etc).

Well this puts you in an impossible situation.

You can't tell where someone is from by looking, but if you ask an Asian looking person from US/Europe they take offence, however if you fail to ask someone from Asia and incorrectly guess the region in Asia they are from they take offence, so it would be better to ask, but then you offend someone if they turn out to be from US/Europe.

Can we just agree if you ask someone where they are from it isn't offence, but if you then say "No, where are you really/originally from?" it is.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Well this puts you in an impossible situation.

You can't tell where someone is from by looking, but if you ask an Asian looking person from US/Europe they take offence, however if you fail to ask someone from Asia and incorrectly guess the region in Asia they are from they take offence, so it would be better to ask, but then you offend someone if they turn out to be from US/Europe.

Can we just agree if you ask someone where they are from it isn't offence, but if you then say "No, where are you really/originally from?" it is.

I don't think it's that impossible.

In the US, at least, if you see someone, you can generally tell if they are American or not based upon the cultural signifiers (clothes, etc.). Certainly when they open their mouths!

I don't have much of a problem noticing Europeans because they tend to stick out (as, I am sure, Europeans notice Americans pretty easily). I think the problem is the default assumption that white people are American because of the color of their skin, but Asian people- well, you have to ask. No one would say, "You need to ask that white guy if he is from the US or Italy!" It just doesn't occur to you; and that's the issue.

The default idea of a skin color = nationality.

 

[Bacon Bits]

they didn't have "expertise" though, they're called "the players" and are only credited as offering some critique on the manuscript. not only that, but they're all Japanese, and don't seem to have the level of knowledge to give a cultural critique to the entire book.

I agree, but those five players were selected for some reason, right? Like they didn't pull names out of a hat and end up with five Japanese players by accident. Assuming it's not something so crass as, "we need some Asian names on our credits page to lend it credibility," they must have been chosen based on some criteria.

wtf is "special knowledge"? I was born and raised in America, I still don't consider myself an expert on American culture. it's not about "special knowlege" it's knowing the history of Orientalism and relations between East Asia and the West and how it's possible, especially at the time the book was written, that might skew whatever perspective an American author might have on Asian cultures. it's not that I was somehow bequeathed some sort of cultural enlightenment out of my heritage, it's that I was taught about my culture as just culture, not something that's "exotic" or "mystical".

Okay, you're the one who said:

if no Asian person made any meaningful contribution to the creation of a book about Asian culture, directly or otherwise, can you at least concede that that in of itself is a little messed up?

So clearly you think there's some knowledge that "an Asian person" would bring "to the creation of a book about Asian culture".

I read that assuming you mean an expert in Asian history and culture, and that's what I was trying to say with my response because it's a little unclear. If that's not what you meant, exactly what do you mean by "an Asian person"? Are you saying, "because this is a book about Asian culture primarily published in America, it should include the Asian-American perspective from someone who is ethnically Asian"?

If that's what you're saying, then how is wrong to describe that perspective as "special knowledge"?

 

[Eric V]

The earlier publication date doesn't make the depiction ok, but you suggest denying that it ever existed in the first place.

Nah. Keep the link on DriveThruRPG (or wherever) and instead have it link to a message from WotC explaining how they took it down because it was insensitive, offensive, and they want to do better for their wide customer base. Then, if people really want to indulge their propensity for insensitive material, they can go find it on their own.

Acknowledge that it happened, stop having the document out there to keep from promoting the insensitive ideas. Done.

 

[Eric V]

As if banning the book's digital version isn't going to influence the price of the existing physical copies.
And since there isn't hardly any difference (in profit) between WotC selling it and another online store selling it: are you're suggesting that we need to resort to piracy?

Hey, if you really want to read insensitive material, I guess you'll do whatever you have to do...

 

[Neonchameleon]

Dire Bare, I think, what you may seem to be missing is that it is not clear that the book is highly problematic.

Just from the very name it's clear that the book is problematic. It could be the best researched book in RPG history - and it would still be highly problematic. Indeed the scope in and of itself is a problem; as I've mentioned Oriental means anything form Turkey to Japan - five thousand miles apart.

 

[Bagpuss]

I don't think it's that impossible.

In the US, at least, if you see someone, you can generally tell if they are American or not based upon the cultural signifiers (clothes, etc.). Certainly when they open their mouths!

Well in Europe that certainly isn't the case, most people speak English with the accent of the teacher they learned it from, so you can have Asian looking people from Holland speaking with America accents, unless you ask you have no idea where they are from.

I don't have much of a problem noticing Europeans because they tend to stick out (as, I am sure, Europeans notice Americans pretty easily).

But if you notice a European would you ask where they are from? Similarly if I get speaking to an American in the UK I would ask where they are from, because I would be interested in what part of the US they are from.

I think the problem is the default assumption that white people are American because of the color of their skin, but Asian people- well, you have to ask. No one would say, "You need to ask that white guy if he is from the US or Italy!" It just doesn't occur to you; and that's the issue.

Yeah but remember we are talking about people meeting at conventions here, you know a place where people come from all over. I don't know about you but I regularly ask people where they are from at the conventions I go to regardless of the colour of their skin, because I am interested if they have travelled far to be there, if they are local, if they happen to live near me and fancy a car share next year, and a genuine interest in them. etc. The situation and context matters.

Hence the point about the follow up question that implies they aren't really from where they say they are from, being the rude bit.

 

[Eric V]

Great question. I would answer this by saying that I think of this in terms of a two-part approach.

1. But What if We're Wrong?

2. Even so, racism is bad, but the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.

Moving it back to the issue of TTRPGs, I have no objection to people pressuring WoTC to do better; I want them to. I have no objection to people pressuring WoTC to not profit from objectionable material (or to provide the proceeds of said material to a charity, etc.). I have no objection to people pressuring WoTC to providing additional context to historical objectionable material. But as a matter of principle, for me, I strongly object to attempt to permanently remove that historical material, especially given that OA is not even the most objectionable content from the early period ('74 - '89), and was, for its time, much better than most depictions (see also, 16 Candles).

1. I have read Chuck's book several times now. Yeah, a lot of our default assumptions about what we think we know as objective facts could be wrong. This is not a similar issue, though; I can't tell @Panda-s1 that he's wrong about how OA's depictions of Asian culture make him feel. Chuck was asking about "Is there something new to learn about gravity?" or "Is this really the year 2020?" not "Are East Asians objectively offended by a book written about their culture in fantasy terms with virtually no one form Asian descent contributing?"

2. People are asking WotC to remove the book from wherever they are selling it. If WotC is making money off it, it seems to be in contrast to their statement that they are trying to do better by their widening customer base. The book can go into a museum of "The history of RPGs" or something, but frankly, looking at the credits and the way it was put together, WotC might just be too embarrassed to keep selling it in 2020.

 

[Umbran]

...dude. this book was not available in any official capacity between the time it went out of print

Not sure when this was - but the original is a 1e book, and 2e came out in 1989. DriveThruRPG lists the book as being listed in 2014. So, it was effectively unavailable for about 25 years. It was not wiped from history in that time, interestingly enough.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I don't have much of a problem noticing Europeans because they tend to stick out (as, I am sure, Europeans notice Americans pretty easily). I think the problem is the default assumption that white people are American because of the color of their skin, but Asian people- well, you have to ask. No one would say, "You need to ask that white guy if he is from the US or Italy!" It just doesn't occur to you; and that's the issue.

I mean, it kind of fits the profile. People are guessing that Asian people are more often immigrants than Caucasians because we currently have a lot of Asian immigrants and relatively few Caucasians. In my work at a public K-12 I've definitely encountered a lot of first generation Asian immigrants in the past 10 years than previously, although in my area there seem to be a lot more Filipino immigrants than anything. That doesn't mean the question can't be rude, but it is understandable why someone might assume an Asian is more likely to be an immigrant.