D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

Just look how this whole thing here evolved.
It started with not having always evil orcs, quickly branched out to OA ist racist and now the first people are calling for the removal of ability modifiers because having different races be actually different is racism to them.
There is not just a threat of a slippery slope any more, we are already on a very fast, very steep slide.
And if you think about removing statues of Grant... here comes the free fall into racist paranoia.
When I've seen this I've just tryied to imagine what could happen in Italy if we destroy Coliseum as a symbol of Christian persecution during pre-constantine roman empire. Or remove divine comedy from shelves as a symbol of Christian intolerance... This sound not comparable to remove OA? Just because OA is not an artistic expression at the highness of those i cited, but the fact it is exactly the same in principle. Self or not, toward high or low brow artistic expressions is absolutely not different.
 

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"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

WoTC labeled all their old material like this on DMsGuild. We should be done now.
Truly glad that intelligence has won the battle, since now.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
Well this puts you in an impossible situation.

You can't tell where someone is from by looking, but if you ask an Asian looking person from US/Europe they take offence, however if you fail to ask someone from Asia and incorrectly guess the region in Asia they are from they take offence, so it would be better to ask, but then you offend someone if they turn out to be from US/Europe.

Can we just agree if you ask someone where they are from it isn't offence, but if you then say "No, where are you really/originally from?" it is.
sounds like the solution here is, unless you have a very good reason, to not ask people where they're from.
I don't want to get pulled into another discussion on OA and the current culture war... but a quick comment on #1:

I live in a rural area near a small town of about 3,500, serving as the hub for a greater area of about 15,000 people. "Where are you from?" is a legit conversation topic that will come up in the first 5 minutes of conversations with anybody new, at church, at a game, or anywhere else. It doesn't matter what your skin color is. We have a solid mix of "grew up here," "moved here to escape the big city," and "grew up here, moved away for 20 years, moved back." No social repercussions or anything. It's just small talk and part of getting to know someone. We've found at least 3 people who used to live in the same suburb we moved from 3 years ago.
yo, context. you're talking about a small town where as you said a lot of people themselves aren't from. OP is talking about how a lot of Asian people will get asked where they're from apropos of nothing other than the fact they look Asian. I personally haven't dealt with this, I'm only half Asian and people tend to get very confused when on the subject of what my ethnic background might be, but it's not hard to understand how this might make others feel alienated.
I would like to note that two can play the "take elements from another culture to fulfill their own desires" game!

speaking of garbo fantasy anime, while I never did watch the whole thing I did appreciate Breakout Company and how the main protagonist, hamfisted as it was, used the petty discrimination he received for being a nerd to become angry over systemic racism.
In the case of OA why should they not have access? It is currently available, WOTC is happy to publish it. Why should everyone suddenly not have access, because others have decided it is too immoral for them to see?
so, they should be able to read it... just because? we're 35 years detached from when it was first published, nowadays you can go on the DM's Guild or any number of websites and find better setting books themed around Asian cultures. they might not even be written by Asian authors, but at least now there's an increased likelihood they used better, more balanced resources than anything that was available in 1985.

also going to the store page I see comments like this:
1594166179619.png

tell me, who is it that will be served if they decide to keep selling the book?
"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

WoTC labeled all their old material like this on DMsGuild. We should be done now.
mmmmm, no, they really should stop selling it.

also they just slapped that paragraph at the bottom of the description. most people won't even see that disclaimer when they come to buy the book. how is that effective?
 

Do you really think this will stop the "all is racist" complainers?

No, and I think it is generic and not really addressing issues that might be really there, but I am fine with it. Looks like Hasbro stepped in as that is a movie/TV company disclaimer like Loony Tunes.

I expect that Hasbro is cleaning up the HR and other practices that lead to bad hires plus addressing the bad environment. WoTC has been a little empire printing gold and not too heavily under the thumb of Hasbro, but the people screaming have gotten noticed. I doubt they will like the changes that happen, though.
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
also they just slapped that paragraph at the bottom of the description. most people won't even see that disclaimer when they come to buy the book. how is that effective?

It's at the top of each edition page when you go to look at the available titles by edition too: Dungeon Masters Guild - 1st Edition -

I'd like it to be right above the product history, on OA.

But... just noticed it's on every single edition and every single product page from 4th edition and older. I can understand why they'd do that for expediency, but it makes it seem like just an afterthought instead of thinking about which products it was. :-(

I'm assuming they didn't make it page 0 on the pdf files, or we'd have heard about that.
 

so, they should be able to read it... just because? we're 35 years detached from when it was first published, nowadays you can go on the DM's Guild or any number of websites and find better setting books themed around Asian cultures. they might not even be written by Asian authors, but at least now there's an increased likelihood they used better, more balanced resources than anything that was available in 1985.

Because people want to have access to it and a person objecting to it on moral grounds shouldn't prevent other people from making the choice themselves about the book. And it is a part of D&D history. And it is a supplement many people find useful. Are there other books out there that are better by today's standards to many? Sure. It is perfectly fine to have more options though, and the 1E version provides a pastiche setting that is fully compatible with 1E and 1E retroclones (so it has use for plenty of people). Personally I don't run 1E any more but I do like reading my 1E books. And I probably will do a 1E D&D campaign again in the near future (Oriental Adventures might make an appearance in it in some form). I am not saying it is a perfect book, and I am not saying there are not problems with it. But I think it is much better to allow people to make the call for themselves whether it is okay for them to own. I certainly don't want people who use twitter to put pressure on game companies to be the ones deciding what I have access to.


also going to the store page I see comments like this:
View attachment 123521
tell me, who is it that will be served if they decide to keep selling the book?

mmmmm, no, they really should stop selling it.

A lot of people recently bought it on principle because they were worried it was coming down. I think that is a good thing. People were trying to send a message to WOTC. On the other hand, just because some people only bought it recently due to the controversy surrounding it, doesn't mean there are not people who still use it (I know plenty of 1E GMs who make regular use of it).

Again, I am not saying you have to like this book. I said earlier, I watched the video critiques of it, and there were some criticisms I agreed with, some I didn't. I just didn't think the criticisms warranted the book being taken down. People have already engaged a lot of the specific critiques, but I will say this. I like to run wuxia a lot. And I would definitely say if you are looking for some kind of authentic and nuanced depiction of that sort of thing (or any variety of asian inspired setting) Oriental Adventures isn't that. I've cobbled together more authentic wuxia campaigns using the 1E and 3E OA campaign books over the years (as well as using other systems, and one of my own), so I still found plenty of utility in them even when I was trying to run something more authentic than what OA offers. But I don't think authentic is a requirement. There is plenty of fun to be had in pastiche settings that are a little off the wall, and not true to the source material. It depends on what you want. I don't object to you not liking it, or taking issue with it. What I object to is you deciding for other people whether they should have access to the book, when WOTC was happy to publish for people in PDF form on Drivethru. I don't think that is an unreasonable position to take
 

Libramarian

Adventurer
"We recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."

WoTC labeled all their old material like this on DMsGuild. We should be done now.
So WotC is using the exact same statement as Warner Bros.? Is this a joke? These are truly strange times.
 
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Eric V

Hero
If you don't like the Indian Removal Act as an analogy, ...

It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not; it's a terrible analogy. As for your alternatives, similar issues: is there a game where one is actively roleplaying a slave owner and using the n-word? Do you not see the difference here? One is a book that can be read at a distance, the other is giving instructions on how to stereotype East Asians using rules. Yeesh...
 

Mercurius

Legend
It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not; it's a terrible analogy. As for your alternatives, similar issues: is there a game where one is actively roleplaying a slave owner and using the n-word? Do you not see the difference here? One is a book that can be read at a distance, the other is giving instructions on how to stereotype East Asians using rules? Yeesh...

D&D is full of stereotypes, east and west alike.

Anyhow, it looks like D&D is keeping their Evil Book of Stereotypes in print and just slapping a disclaimer on it.
 

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