D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Flamestrike]

Orcs are clearly derived from an archetype, again that exists in many cultures, of a non-imagined "other people" who want our land and our women, and have all these terrible traits ascribed to them that make it ok for us to kill them.

That's the problem. Those traits lead to messed up ethical reasoning, whereby people start to justify murder and genocide against them because of those traits.

It's problematic because thats how real world genocide gets justified. Literally every single time.

Orcs are capable of change. Redemption. Love. Altruism. Hope for a better future. Kindness. Mercy.

The only villain is Gruumsh and the rest of the Orc pantheon who push a life of evil on Orcs and Orc culture. Ordinary Orcs are as much a victim as the targets of their raids.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Which was in response to military action against them by the Federation who previously tried to set up a colony on a world they already inhabited. The colonists found the bugs, and then attempted to kill them. It.... did not end well for the colonists.

Also, remember in the movie we are only ever presented the attack on the Federation, from an 'in universe' perspective via their own propaganda network.

It's no different to how the Nazis (who are the clear inspiration for the Federation) did the same to justify invading Poland, annexing Austria, Operation Barbarossa and similar.

Well, in all honesty I am just going from the movie (which as a long time ago...). And in the movie, we settle there sure, and they killed everyone there. I don't know if the colonists were trying to wipe out the bugs or not...

 

[Guest 6801328]

It was a claim made not too many posts ago by someone on your side of things. Take it up with him.

Citation needed.

 

[Maxperson]

Citation needed.

Post #436. If you have people blocked, it will be a different number for you. I have no one blocked, so my number is accurate.

 

[Flamestrike]

Well, in all honesty I am just going from the movie (which as a long time ago...). And in the movie, we settle there sure, and they killed everyone there. I don't know if the colonists were trying to wipe out the bugs or not...

The 'attack' from the Bugs was shown via a Federation propaganda film, from the POV of a human in the setting.



Watch it again and tell me who started the war

 

[Guest 6801328]

Nope. With bonuses I can choose a race that has synergy with my class(meaning) or I can buck the trend and play a dwarf wizard(meaning). Without bonuses I can blindfold myself and throw a dart a board with race names, and just pick the one hit without making a bit of difference to my class(no meaning at all).

Uh....sure, you could pick the race randomly. That's not what anybody is talking about.

Or you could pick the race you want to play, just because you like the concept. You could make a Dwarf wizard and give him an Int score that makes him as powerful as other wizards, or you could make a Dwarf wizard and simply not give him a high Int score. Floating bonuses don't prevent those other character concepts.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Please understand what you just said here. (I'm assuming you forgot to negate the "otherwise hurt them" part.)

This is saying that PoC are not actually suffering any hurt today. That it's all in their heads. That the centuries of lies about their bestiality and violence and lack of intelligence hasn't actually caused any real harm; that they're just imagining all of it, and just taking offense where none should be taken.

No, I don't think the negate should be there.

I'm not saying victims (of whatever) aren't hurt, but the power to get over/past/through that hurt is theirs. If they don't exercise that power, they are giving it back to the offender and can be hurt again, and again, and again. Finding that power is NOT easy (please do think I am saying it is), but if you want to help, help them find it.

And frankly, yes, I do think sometimes offense is taken where none was given or meant to be. This goes back to my points in other threads (and maybe this one) that I am not going to walk on eggshells the rest of my life because I might hurt someone's feelings.

 

[Wishbone]

Making the connection between to things that are superficially similar is where you go wrong. What you are doing is the same as going after a modern religion for child sacrifice, because the Philistine religion sacrificed infants on alters and both are religions. There's more of a connection between the religion of the Philistines and a modern religion than there is between orcs and Native Americans.

I shared a video of several Black TTRPG creators saying they view orcs as rooted in racist concepts if that is of any use to you in this discussion.

Nope, not too much to ask.

But help them to find the power in themselves and understand their choice to not give power to things that otherwise hurt them.

One of my good friends could easily find distaste and such in orcs given his own background and whatnot, but he chooses to understand it is a game, and those things are only harmful to someone because they force us to look at our own humanity (and frankly, a lot of people don't like what they see!). He gets that and is all in favor of leaving orcs as evil monstrous humanoids, who, because he wants to see the good in them, have individuals (like Many Arrows) who struggle and overcome against all odds to be better. He doesn't need the general populace to outcry against the status quo and have orcs as re-skinned humans.

I don't think we should expect every single person who takes offense to a fantasy concept that draws on real world stereotypes people might associate with their identity to rise above it. That seems to put the work on them rather than on each of us to be better going forward.

 

[Wishbone]

No, I don't think the negate should be there.

I'm not saying victims (of whatever) aren't hurt, but the power to get over/past/through that hurt is theirs. If they don't exercise that power, they are giving it back to the offender and can be hurt again, and again, and again. Finding that power is NOT easy (please do think I am saying it is), but if you want to help, help them find it.

And frankly, yes, I do think sometimes offense is taken where none was given or meant to be. This goes back to my points in other threads (and maybe this one) that I am not going to walk on eggshells the rest of my life because I might hurt someone's feelings.

I know that I'm not asking people to walk on eggshells because you might hurt someone's feelings. What I mean is that each of us (because I'm guilty of this too) should consider why someone would perceive our actions or words as hurtful to them and incorporate that knowledge into trying to improve on things going forward. For me, the way intent factors in from my experience is if someone causes harm without intending to do so that signals they are more likely to listen to why the action was hurtful and improve going forward.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

May I suggest that that we take the Racial Ability Score discussion to the racial ASI thread where it is also happening already and leave this thread for how to represent the orcs lore-wise?

(Then it will be easier for me to remember in which thread I am supposed to agree with @Elfcrusher and in which to disagree! )