Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Ruin Explorer]

If you don't understand, you can just say so. You don't have to keep demonstrating your lack of understanding.

Captain Picard Facepalm is all I have to say to that. But you do you.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yes, well, with respect, not a single one of these criticisms are new - these things have been coming up for years. But when criticism was less constant and less intense... it was largely ignored*. Because hey, it was less constant and intense, so clearly it wasn't a BIG issue, right?

And now, when it is louder... we use that as a reason to not accept it again?

That looks like goalpost moving. What kind of criticism won't be overlooked or rejected out of hand? Goldilocks needs their criticism just right to accept it, but won't elucidate what just right is. That starts to look like making excuses to not accept criticism at all, doesn't it?

It is about where the weight of the discussion is. It is also about where the cultural mean has shifted to in the online gaming community (and I do think there is a big difference between the online and the offline gaming community).

To use an example from another thread, I think when we reached the point that 'orcs are racist' became an opinion, at least in online circles, that was taken quite seriously, to me that is when these critiques really start to jump the shark. Another would be when people are actually calling for WOTC to take down a book because of content they object to. And I think the things we are seeing in this thread are in a similar category in terms of, it is stuff most people in regular life probably wouldn't bat an eye at, but in the context of online, social media discussion, it has gained a lot more traction (and if you are a writer, online discussions affect what gets printed, if you are a reader, it affects what kinds of books you will see on the shelves). I just feel we are moving in a direction that isn't good for the hobby (which is why I make a point of expressing my view in these kinds of threads).

 

[Voadam]

The view of pablum is going to be a matter of taste that varies by individuals. 2e reportedly had morality guides for their writers and stuff which not only led to the removal of any demons or devils for a long while but also drove to PCs are heroic and not mercenary or evil for player facing stuff and bad guys being defeated which led to a lot of Skeletor/StarScream type things where the Zhentarim is always failing. 2e has a lot of great stuff, but there is also a lot of material that different people just consider stuff.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The view of pablum is going to be a matter of taste that varies by individuals. 2e reportedly had morality guides for their writers and stuff which not only led to the removal of any demons or devils for a long while but also drove to PCs are heroic and not mercenary or evil for player facing stuff and bad guys being defeated which led to a lot of Skeletor/StarScream type things where the Zhentarim is always failing. 2e has a lot of great stuff, but there is also a lot of material that different people just consider stuff.

I liked a lot of the 2E material, but I think there is no question the push to avoid offending the religious sensibilities of some people during the Satanic panic made the line much more pablum. There were still interesting things being done, in Dark Sun and Ravenloft for example, but even that was interesting in a wholesome, 1950s style manner. Ravenloft for example drew a lot of inspiration from Hammer Studios, which was far form wholesome, but the end result felt a lot more like Universal horror than Hammer. I grew up on that stuff, so I liked it, but I do think overall the line was harmed by the need to avoid controversy. I see similarities to that today (especially having grown up in an extremely religious community where the Satanic panic had big impact). Now we are not taking demons out of 1E books, but we are trying to strip out content that people are saying is harmful, dangerous, etc. A lot of times, the content is just misunderstood though. Which is what I would say is the case with something like orcs, or with people seeing colonialist tropes in D&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Ravenloft for example drew a lot of inspiration from Hammer Studios, which was far form wholesome, but the end result felt a lot more like Universal horror than Hammer. I grew up on that stuff, so I liked it, but I do think overall the line was harmed by the need to avoid controversy.

Ravenloft is an interesting case because the main book from the boxed set in 2E discussed the decision to focus pretty much solely on Hammer/Gothic horror, rather than more gory, violent, scary then-modern horror (which would have been stuff like Friday the 13th, American Werewolf in London, Fright Night, Dawn of the Dead, Halloween, and so on). As I recall, the book is somewhat scathing about the quality of modern horror, as compared to the Hammer era and generally seems to really strongly look down on modern horror.

I can't comment on the line overall re: avoiding controversy, as I'm not sufficiently familiar with it, but that initial 2E book seemed to take a very firm position about its inspiration (if desired I may even be able to find some quotes, as I read it only a few months ago), which would preclude it being (from the author's perspective) any kind of reaction to "moral codes".

 

[Voadam]

Shamans have had a varied life in D&D.

Already brought up is the 1e Dungeon Master's Guide where shamans were humanoid clerical spellcasters generally lower powered than PC oriented clerics, though a decent power up over standard humanoids.

In 1e Deities and Demigods this was carried forward even for giants, but American Indians used the full powered clerics just as Greek and Norse and fantasy pantheons did.

In Basic you had PC shaman classes in GAZ10 Orcs of Thar (plus a wicca class), GAZ12 Golden Khan of Ethengar, GAZ13 Shadow Elves, and GAZ14 Atruaghin Clans.

In 2e a lot of those Basic Gazetteers were dual statted for 2e as well plus there was a whole Shaman sourcebook that introduced a whole optional spirit realm for D&D cosmology. The Shaman is book is interesting having originally been planned for Mayfair Games's Role Aids line which was acquired by TSR after a lawsuit.

The Forgotten Realms 2e god book Faiths & Avatars added in a shaman class with spirit powers along with a mystic and crusader and divine spellcasting monk classes.

The 2e Complete Priest's Handbook there was a savage priest kit which was described as "a shaman of a savage tribe".

In 3e there was the spirit shaman in 3.5's Complete Divine. In the 3e and 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide the role of humanoid NPC shaman from 1e was genericized to the adept and applied to any race as a lower powered NPC class. I am sure somewhere there was a shamanic prestige class and I know of multiple OGL shaman classes.

In 4e the shaman class was from Player's Handbook 2, they were primal powered leaders and not divine power source.

In 5e I am not sure off the top of my head where there are shaman things other than some references in the MM.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Ravenloft is an interesting case because the main book from the boxed set in 2E discussed the decision to focus pretty much solely on Hammer/Gothic horror, rather than more gory, violent, scary then-modern horror (which would have been stuff like Friday the 13th, American Werewolf in London, Fright Night, Dawn of the Dead, Halloween, and so on). As I recall, the book is somewhat scathing about the quality of modern horror, as compared to the Hammer era and generally seems to really strongly look down on modern horror.

Yes, this is absolutely true. I don't recall if they explicitly mentioned hammer (they mainly used the term Gothic Horror for what they were going for; but there was so much that was clearly based on Universal and Hammer---the hammer influence became more pronounced as the line developed). They also quoted lovecraft a lot, and quoted books like Frankenstein (this was actually what prompted me to read Frankenstein). So it wasn't purely gothic, but definitely had an 'old fashioned horror' feel to it. It took particular issue with gore and excess blood. I was a kid who loved Clive Barker, Evil Dead, gore, and slasher movies, etc. But I do think the boxed set made a good case for the value of restraint in horror

I can't comment on the line overall re: avoiding controversy, as I'm not sufficiently familiar with it, but that initial 2E book seemed to take a very firm position about its inspiration (if desired I may even be able to find some quotes, as I read it only a few months ago), which would preclude it being (from the author's perspective) any kind of reaction to "moral codes".

It definitely had a very strong voice, and I think you are right the authors had a clear vision. I always assumed it was given the go by TSR because it wasn't as likely to upset religious groups. My assumption was something like Vampire wouldn't have been green lighted. But that is fair so I actually sent a message to someone who worked on the line, and they confirmed it was purely a creative decision, not a product of the satanic panic. So it seems my assumption here was incorrect

 

[Umbran]

It is about where the weight of the discussion is. It is also about where the cultural mean has shifted to in the online gaming community (and I do think there is a big difference between the online and the offline gaming community).

Maybe there's a difference, but... you really do need to beware on that. WotC's demographics say that 40% of their players are under 25. Only 11% are 40+. The generations have shifted, so you should expect shifts in the cultural means both online and offline.

The above really implies an assertion that YOU know what these communities are really like, and others are missing THE TRUTH. That's a pretty big claim. You probably need to back it up with some evidence, or this is rather hollow.

To use an example from another thread, I think when we reached the point that 'orcs are racist' became an opinion, at least in online circles, that was taken quite seriously, to me that is when these critiques really start to jump the shark.

Ah, So, first off, that's a shorthand. A more full statement of the point is that orcs have traditionally been and are still currently presented using many elements of language and tropes that are used in real-world racism, and that is a problem.

And, if "orcs are racist" is jumping the shark... I have to tell you that, "If we do change our language, games will be pablum!" is no less grandiose. Pot and kettle having a moment here, if you will.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The above really implies an assertion that YOU know what these communities are really like, and others are missing THE TRUTH. That's a pretty big claim. You probably need to back it up with some evidence, or this is rather hollow.

This is notoriously difficult to figure out. So I am not claiming to have all the answers here. There isn't much in the way of data here that I am aware of. So all one has to go on is what one sees, what one hears, etc. And granted that isn't a great indication, it is just a general sense one has. I will say I mostly game online though Skype, and I have several groups i am part of with ages ranging from 20-55. I am just reporting my impression. I see the same thing with game groups I am a part of that meet in real life (though lately I have been doing that less and less, as it is just easier to use Skype). But I do see a large difference among the gamers in my groups who are regular online posters on social media and in forums, and those who have no clue what the online community thinks).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Ah, So, first off, that's a shorthand. A more full statement of the point is that orcs have traditionally been and are still currently presented using many elements of language and tropes that are used in real-world racism, and that is a problem.

And, if "orcs are racist" is jumping the shark... I have to tell you that, "If we do change our language, games will be pablum!" is no less grandiose. Pot and kettle having a moment here, if you will.

A couple of things. First, I think we are just not going to agree on orcs! ----and I am sure we have both explained our positions to one another on orcs in earlier threads, so I won't rehash that here. Second, I am not saying people shouldn't change the language they use. If a designer wants to or wants to make a game that explored more nuanced orcs, I am all for that. I am all for people being able to do more creatively in the hobby. What I am opposed to is new taboos forming that make something like having evil orcs in your game completely out of the question, or using druids or mana (to keep it with this thread) in a creative and new way that doesn't follow the material on them in the source cultures. Like I said, it isn't even the critiques. The critiques are fine. It is when it reaches a point that people feel like they can't actually make something, or feel like they are being watched the whole time they work on a project because they are worried about all these new lines that are emerging. Or when it just reaches a point that the whole gaming community has shifted in favor of an idea, that to me, seems really unsound (like orcs being racist). As I said earlier, I just reached a point where I had to ignore it. It was too paralyzing. And I think a lot of other people are starting to feel that as well.